Science
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- ukit20
" the existence of what we call psi effects are perfectly reasonable. The nature and mechanic of these psi effects is, on the other hand, a different question."
That's kind of what I'm getting at though...if you can't begin to explain the nature and mechanics of it then it isn't reasonable. Not anymore or less reasonable than any other random explanation. It's like the Ancient Aliens guy who wants the explanation for everything to be aliens. Statistical anomaly, well clearly it must be psychic powers!
People have always wanted to believe that their minds are the center of the universe, when in fact that universe is a much weirder place and not based around humans at all.
- Morning_star0
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A new kind of particle is a reasonable extrapolation from what we already know about the universe. The idea that people can communicate telepathically and affect objects far away from them with their minds isn't.I disagree. From what we know about the universe, and have measured and experienced in humans and animals, the existence of what we call psi effects are perfectly reasonable. The nature and mechanic of these psi effects is, on the other hand, a different question.
Show me the evidence > http://www.deanradin.com/evidenc…
- I see it as another sense. and the nature of how energy n frequencies interact with crystalline structuresyurimon
- ukit20
"Astrophysicists hypothesized dark matter because of discrepancies between the mass of large astronomical objects determined from their gravitational effects and the mass calculated from the "luminous matter" they contain: stars, gas, and dust....According to consensus among cosmologists, dark matter is composed primarily of a not yet characterized type of subatomic particle."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar…
A new kind of particle is a reasonable extrapolation from what we already know about the universe. The idea that people can communicate telepathically and affect objects far away from them with their minds isn't. It's a completely random non-sequitur that only someone who already wanted to believe in supernatural explanations would suggest.
- It could be their math is wrong or how they come up with numbers. Dark matter came out of being out of an accounting error.yurimon
- However one can ask can you come up with mass equation by smashing a whole into pieces?yurimon
- Alot of these equations are patching up to make old equations work.. keeping people employed n paid in universities.yurimon
- imagine being a tenure prof and you were wrong all your life...yurimon
- Like I said earlier, IF you had no experience or havent witnessed psychic phenomena then it foreign and inconceivableyurimon
- Sure, but there's also competition and a lot of incentive to prove new ideasukit2
- even if their is an explanation in science. it is often dismissed even though its an opportunity to explore.yurimon
- but science is missing. Look at the nazis. They merged spirit n science. their science was way more advance then americans.yurimon
- Morning_star0
i forgot this bit
"When scientists refer to "dark matter" they are talking about the fact that objects in space"
The 'fact' of it is there is no object. There is no test, measurement or analysis on earth that can detect DM. Using the existing Standard Model DM does not exist. The only thing we can measure is the gravitational effect it has on surround matter. I've explained this before with a link supported by Lawrence Krauss saying exactly the same thing as i'm asserting. 4:41 to 6:18 in the linked video.
---------------- 'Dark matter' basically means 'we have literally fuck all idea what we're talking about and are making things up to fit our beliefs'set
- "they are talking about the fact that objects in space have a greater gravitational effect"ukit2
- No they're not. There is no object and that's the problem.Morning_star
- Read the quote I posted below...what I'm talking about are the gravitational effects of other objects in space which lead scientists to think there is a missing component not being measured.ukit2
- lead scientists to think there is a missing component not being measured.ukit2
- You're quite right. I thought you were claiming that DM was the object.Morning_star
- it might not be an object, but signs point to it having incredible mass which would cause gravitational pullmonospaced
- Indeed. Speculation as to the size of the particle are unprecedented. It does however call in to question the supersymmetry theory.Morning_star
- theory regarding supersymmetry.Morning_star
- Morning_star0
In reply to ukit2:
"They don't assume a single explanation for this...some think it's because there's an unknown type of matter and energy that we are not currently able to detect."
and how is this scenario any different to the one explaining the phenomena measured by the ESP experiments? 'Something' is making the results of these experiments deviate from chance or expectation. What that 'something' is, is up for debate, like Dark Matter.
---------------"With these tests you are talking about on the other hand, they are looking at statistical anomalies, like someone guessing a number more than the statistical average, and assuming a completely unjustified explanation, that people have psychic powers."
The experiments are designed specifically to detect the influence of the mind on material objects at a distance. Why then is the conclusion unjustified? It's not. These aren't a band of hippies in a yurt in California taking psychodelics and chanting 'ohm'. These are intelligent academics with labs who understand scientific method and all the pitfalls and hurdles associated with this type of experiment. I've heard a debate between Radins team and a number of skeptics who questioned them about their Scientific Method, Experiment Design and Control Management and they couldn't fault them. So the claim that there are 'known flaws with this kind of experiment' is so generic and inaccurate it's less than worthless.
---------------"No one has ever explained why we should think that people have psychic powers, other than it being a long-standing religious/mystical belief. It's no more plausible an explanation than saying that JEsus came down from heaven and implanted the thoughts in their brain."
Really? You're seriously suggesting that paranormal phenomena were invented as a way of supporting/explaining/experienci... religious and mystical belief. Could you explain a little more?
- son0
Julian's research at Glidden changed direction in 1940 when he began work on synthesizing progesterone, estrogen, and testosterone from the plant sterols stigmasterol and sitosterol, isolated from soybean oil by a foam technique he invented and patented.
In 1990 he was elected to the National Inventors Hall of Fame, and in 1999 his synthesis of physostigmine was recognized by the American Chemical Society as “one of the top 25 achievements in the history of American chemistry.”
- ukit20
"A more appropriate comparison for the effects of ESP would be Dark Matter/Energy."
When scientists refer to "dark matter" they are talking about the fact that objects in space have a greater gravitational effect than would be expected based on their mass. They don't assume a single explanation for this...some think it's because there's an unknown type of matter and energy that we are not currently able to detect. Others have suggested that the way we measure gravity itself is flawed. But there's nothing supernatural about it.
With these tests you are talking about on the other hand, they are looking at statistical anomalies, like someone guessing a number more than the statistical average, and assuming a completely unjustified explanation, that people have psychic powers.
The article I posted, if you read the part at the end it runs through some of the known flaws with these kind of experiments:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skepti…
But even if the experiments weren't faked or flawed, there are plenty of other explanations for the results they are getting. No one has ever explained why we should think that people have psychic powers, other than it being a long-standing religious/mystical belief. It's no more plausible an explanation than saying that JEsus came down from heaven and implanted the thoughts in their brain.
- bingomonospaced
- you can only say that because you have no experience with the phenomenon. personal or otherwise.yurimon
- And you have? Please tell us about your psychic powers yurimon...ukit2
- If you never tried to explore the world in the 1400's would you ever thought there was another continent?yurimon
- No, but thank science for solving that!monospaced
- If psychic power was real you could make a fortune on the stock market, among other things.ukit2
- There would be no need to guess when the new iPhone was coming out...ukit2
- those metaphores dont relate. its a consciousness issue. awareness or experience. metaphor linked to consciousness.yurimon
- consciousness..yurimon
- His "metaphors" are actually hypothetical situations, and they hold up.monospaced
- it exist in the way your consciousness exist.yurimon
- Morning_star0
Ray Hyman - is a Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Oregon in Eugene, Oregon,[1] and a noted critic of parapsychology. Hyman along with James Randi, Martin Gardner and Paul Kurtz is one of the founders of the modern skeptical movement. He is the founder and leader of the Skeptic's Toolbox. Hyman serves on the Executive Council for the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry."
So, no agenda there then.
Utts response to Rayman
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~jutts/re…- you used him to support a comment on the previous page. So now he perspective doesn't work for you?Gnash
- *hisGnash
- Hyman was talking about the Randi prize and it being unscientific. Randi and Hyman are friends and colleagues. My point was that Hymans opinion should be doubly valid when talking about Randi because they're on the same 'side'.Morning_star
- point was that Hymans opinion should be doubly valid when talking about the Randi Prize because they're on the same 'side'.Morning_star
- 'side'. If you would like another critic of Randi i'd be please to post a few links. However, Hyman has a clear skeptical agenda.Morning_star
- agenda.Morning_star
- Gnash0
... Ray Hyman on Utts findings ^
According to Hyman "the overwhelming amount of data generated by the viewers is vague, general, and way off target. The few apparent hits are just what we would expect if nothing other than reasonable guessing and subjective validation are operating."[5] Funding for the project was stopped after these reports were issued.
- Morning_star0
as for Randi:
"Randi is probably best known for his infamous million-dollar challenge to "any person or persons who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability of any kind" under what Randi refers to as "satisfactory observing conditions."Ray Hyman, a leading Fellow of CSICOP, has pointed out that Randi's challenge is illegitimate from a scientific standpoint. "Scientists don't settle issues with a single test ... Proof in science happens through replication." If Randi's challenge was legitimate, he would set up a double-blind experiment which he himself wouldn't judge. But considering his hostility toward scientists receptive to paranormal phenomena, this doesn't seem likely. His "challenge" is rigged, yet he can crow that his prize goes unclaimed because paranormal phenomena simply does not exist."
From:http://www.skepticalinvesti...
- You miss the very point of his challenge. I'm sure he'd love to go full Science if he ever had to fork out his prizedetritus
- My point exactly. We're talking about science and scientists here not Mystic Meg.Morning_star
- Morning_star0
You're wrong mono.
"Professor Jessica Utts, a statistician from the University of California, discovered that remote viewers were correct 34 per cent of the time, a figure way beyond what chance guessing would allow.
She says: "Using the standards applied to any other area of science, you have to conclude that certain psychic phenomena, such as remote viewing, have been well established."
- He's wrong because one person agreed?ukit2
- One person disagreed? No. They didn't disagree, wrote a scientific paper, analysed data and came to the conclusion that using the current scientific standards paranormal phenomenon is proven. It's a little more than 'opinion'.Morning_star
- current scientific standards paranormal phenomenon is proven. It's a little more than 'opinion'.Morning_star
- monospaced0
Sorry but every and all real tests on psychic powers or esp have proven it to be a hoax. Not one person has ever performed well during a real test. Ever. $1M prize still waiting.
- Its easy to dismiss if you have no experience of this in your personal lifeyurimon
- yes, incredibly, so easy it's laughable... if it were real it would be pretty importantmonospaced
- especially in the scientific communitymonospaced
- not entirely truedoesnotexist
- Morning_star0
'it should be obvious why this is bullshit' - you're gonna have to do better than that. The link i provided in the quote claims (through independent analysis) that by the standards that exist in science at the moment ESP, Remote Viewing, Survival of Consciousness is proven. The results are statistically significant and are repeatable. Sorry, but your cry of 'Bullshit' needs some evidence in the context of Radins results.
The 'Proving photography to a blind man' article whilst interesting is not comparable. A more appropriate comparison for the effects of ESP would be Dark Matter/Energy. Scientists claim it's existence yet surely (using your process) they should just be able to give me a bit in a test tube or at least show me a picture of it, or if absolutely necessary, they should get one of their whizzy machines to detect it. Sadly they can do none of that. So is Dark Matter/Energy bullshit?
It always surprises me that people don't question the results of the HRC, the discovery of the Higgs Boson, when the majority of the work done at CERN is as you've said 'poring through statistics' to produce a probability. No one's ever seen the Higgs, there is no material evidence for it, just it's assumed effects manifesting themselves in a probability.
True science follows the evidence WHEREVER it leads. If there is evidence for paranormal effects then I don't understand why this should this be such a taboo.
- HRC should read LHC. Not even sure what HRC is. (Doh)Morning_star
- Problem is when they cant find a number to an equation they make it up and call it dark matter.yurimon
- I question the process of measuring. they measure not whole but the breaking of an atom. you get missing infoyurimon
- But the numbers are there and indicate it exists. You don't have to see inside the jar to know its full of liquid.monospaced
- Exactly the same with ESP.Morning_star
- no, not really, because blindly claiming something is not exactly the same as evidence pointing toward itmonospaced
- now I know you think they're not blind claims, but that's a difference of opinion.monospaced
- How is that 'opinion'. There have been accounts of unexplainable mind phenomenon for 1000s of years. There is now emerging evidence suggesting that the effect is real. Your going to have to explain why it's a difference of 'opinion' because as far as i can see it isn't.Morning_star
- evidence suggesting that the effect is real. Your going to have to explain why it's a difference of 'opinion' because as far as i can see it isn't.Morning_star
- it isn't.Morning_star
- Because all real tests have proven these "accounts" as total bullshit. Nobody can do it when asked in a controlled environmentmonospaced
- And all evidence that appears to support it is explainable some other way.monospaced
- so, it's your opinion that it's legit, and mine that it's total bullshit because it hasn't passed a real scientific testmonospaced
- Again, you're wrong https://www.ics.uci.…Morning_star
- ukit20
The difference is that science can measure the Higgs and there is a solid theory for how it fits in with the rest of physics.
Yes you can run an experiment and claim that statistical anomalies are "evidence" of psychic powers but it should be obvious why this is bullshit. You are assigning a ridiculous explanation to something that could have any number of causes, like the experiment being flawed.
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skepti…
If psychic powers are real it shouldn't require poring through statistics. Just demonstrate someone accurately predicting the future or communicating telepathically, video tape it and upload to YouTube. Shouldn't be that hard right? And yet no one has done it despite supposedly studying this stuff for decades.
- Its usually typical of people who dont have any experiences.yurimon
- Morning_star0
@ukit2
For a start don't compare Dean Radin with Deepak Chopra. Chopra is a gobby rent-a-quote who damages his cause every time he opens his mouth.
Dean Radins work is, in my opinion, truly scientific. Whilst he may be exploring concepts and theories that are not mainstream he is honest, follows scientific protocol, published papers in peer reviewed scientific journals. He is about as far from Chopra as you could possibly get.
Check out his work with The Global Consciousness Project, Action at a distance etc. I'll challenge you to find fault with his conclusions.
This is worth a read.
http://deanradin.blogspot.co.uk/…
"A great way to sell books, but if there was any real application to his theories it would have been apparent a long time ago." - Why? Can you tell me what a real application of the discovery of the Higgs Boson would be?- Fault in his conclusion. All tests negative.monospaced
- Cool, do you have a link to the analysis.Morning_star
- ukit20
@ Morningstar,
Not sure how you can claim to have a skeptical attitude towards mainstream science while simultaneously buying into this stuff. A guy who is head of the "Parapsychological Association" and believes in telepathy and psychic powers.
Like his friend Deepak Chopra, it seems like he takes legitimate scientific concepts and mixes them up with new age spirituality. A great way to sell books, but if there was any real application to his theories it would have been apparent a long time ago.
- moldero0
The trouble with religion is obviously the scientists.
- < Ding, Ding, DingGeorgesIV
- It's almost as though you've copied what I wrote sarcastically and are now using it as a serious claim. I hope you can explain yourself ;)Morning_star
- yourself ;)Morning_star
- it is a copy, i would have used "problem" not "trouble"moldero
- :)Morning_star
- :Pmoldero
- doesnotexist0
not believing in facts doesn't make any fact false. anything that answers a rational argument with, "i was told in a vision..." is not proof of anything. science is not a belief system, religion is.
- needs everyone to agree on facts.. you mean theories when you say facts...yurimon
- what if you had a vision that helped you avoid a situation?yurimon
- everyone does not need to agree on a fact being true for it to be true.doesnotexist
- look up: coincidence, delusiondoesnotexist
- yurimon0
- "bla bla...psychic powers...buy my book"ukit2
- Do you know anything about the reasearch that this man does? Have you read any of the peer reviewed papers his labs produce? or is your faith in a reductionist/materia... universe absolute.Morning_star
- produce? or is your faith in a reductionist/materia... universe absolute.Morning_star
- that should read 'reductionist/materi...Morning_star
- Pseudoscience!utopian
