Science
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- Gnash0
... Ray Hyman on Utts findings ^
According to Hyman "the overwhelming amount of data generated by the viewers is vague, general, and way off target. The few apparent hits are just what we would expect if nothing other than reasonable guessing and subjective validation are operating."[5] Funding for the project was stopped after these reports were issued.
- Morning_star0
Ray Hyman - is a Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Oregon in Eugene, Oregon,[1] and a noted critic of parapsychology. Hyman along with James Randi, Martin Gardner and Paul Kurtz is one of the founders of the modern skeptical movement. He is the founder and leader of the Skeptic's Toolbox. Hyman serves on the Executive Council for the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry."
So, no agenda there then.
Utts response to Rayman
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~jutts/re…- you used him to support a comment on the previous page. So now he perspective doesn't work for you?Gnash
- *hisGnash
- Hyman was talking about the Randi prize and it being unscientific. Randi and Hyman are friends and colleagues. My point was that Hymans opinion should be doubly valid when talking about Randi because they're on the same 'side'.Morning_star
- point was that Hymans opinion should be doubly valid when talking about the Randi Prize because they're on the same 'side'.Morning_star
- 'side'. If you would like another critic of Randi i'd be please to post a few links. However, Hyman has a clear skeptical agenda.Morning_star
- agenda.Morning_star
- ukit20
"A more appropriate comparison for the effects of ESP would be Dark Matter/Energy."
When scientists refer to "dark matter" they are talking about the fact that objects in space have a greater gravitational effect than would be expected based on their mass. They don't assume a single explanation for this...some think it's because there's an unknown type of matter and energy that we are not currently able to detect. Others have suggested that the way we measure gravity itself is flawed. But there's nothing supernatural about it.
With these tests you are talking about on the other hand, they are looking at statistical anomalies, like someone guessing a number more than the statistical average, and assuming a completely unjustified explanation, that people have psychic powers.
The article I posted, if you read the part at the end it runs through some of the known flaws with these kind of experiments:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skepti…
But even if the experiments weren't faked or flawed, there are plenty of other explanations for the results they are getting. No one has ever explained why we should think that people have psychic powers, other than it being a long-standing religious/mystical belief. It's no more plausible an explanation than saying that JEsus came down from heaven and implanted the thoughts in their brain.
- bingomonospaced
- you can only say that because you have no experience with the phenomenon. personal or otherwise.yurimon
- And you have? Please tell us about your psychic powers yurimon...ukit2
- If you never tried to explore the world in the 1400's would you ever thought there was another continent?yurimon
- No, but thank science for solving that!monospaced
- If psychic power was real you could make a fortune on the stock market, among other things.ukit2
- There would be no need to guess when the new iPhone was coming out...ukit2
- those metaphores dont relate. its a consciousness issue. awareness or experience. metaphor linked to consciousness.yurimon
- consciousness..yurimon
- His "metaphors" are actually hypothetical situations, and they hold up.monospaced
- it exist in the way your consciousness exist.yurimon
- son0
Julian's research at Glidden changed direction in 1940 when he began work on synthesizing progesterone, estrogen, and testosterone from the plant sterols stigmasterol and sitosterol, isolated from soybean oil by a foam technique he invented and patented.
In 1990 he was elected to the National Inventors Hall of Fame, and in 1999 his synthesis of physostigmine was recognized by the American Chemical Society as “one of the top 25 achievements in the history of American chemistry.”
- Morning_star0
In reply to ukit2:
"They don't assume a single explanation for this...some think it's because there's an unknown type of matter and energy that we are not currently able to detect."
and how is this scenario any different to the one explaining the phenomena measured by the ESP experiments? 'Something' is making the results of these experiments deviate from chance or expectation. What that 'something' is, is up for debate, like Dark Matter.
---------------"With these tests you are talking about on the other hand, they are looking at statistical anomalies, like someone guessing a number more than the statistical average, and assuming a completely unjustified explanation, that people have psychic powers."
The experiments are designed specifically to detect the influence of the mind on material objects at a distance. Why then is the conclusion unjustified? It's not. These aren't a band of hippies in a yurt in California taking psychodelics and chanting 'ohm'. These are intelligent academics with labs who understand scientific method and all the pitfalls and hurdles associated with this type of experiment. I've heard a debate between Radins team and a number of skeptics who questioned them about their Scientific Method, Experiment Design and Control Management and they couldn't fault them. So the claim that there are 'known flaws with this kind of experiment' is so generic and inaccurate it's less than worthless.
---------------"No one has ever explained why we should think that people have psychic powers, other than it being a long-standing religious/mystical belief. It's no more plausible an explanation than saying that JEsus came down from heaven and implanted the thoughts in their brain."
Really? You're seriously suggesting that paranormal phenomena were invented as a way of supporting/explaining/experienci... religious and mystical belief. Could you explain a little more?
- Morning_star0
i forgot this bit
"When scientists refer to "dark matter" they are talking about the fact that objects in space"
The 'fact' of it is there is no object. There is no test, measurement or analysis on earth that can detect DM. Using the existing Standard Model DM does not exist. The only thing we can measure is the gravitational effect it has on surround matter. I've explained this before with a link supported by Lawrence Krauss saying exactly the same thing as i'm asserting. 4:41 to 6:18 in the linked video.
---------------- 'Dark matter' basically means 'we have literally fuck all idea what we're talking about and are making things up to fit our beliefs'set
- "they are talking about the fact that objects in space have a greater gravitational effect"ukit2
- No they're not. There is no object and that's the problem.Morning_star
- Read the quote I posted below...what I'm talking about are the gravitational effects of other objects in space which lead scientists to think there is a missing component not being measured.ukit2
- lead scientists to think there is a missing component not being measured.ukit2
- You're quite right. I thought you were claiming that DM was the object.Morning_star
- it might not be an object, but signs point to it having incredible mass which would cause gravitational pullmonospaced
- Indeed. Speculation as to the size of the particle are unprecedented. It does however call in to question the supersymmetry theory.Morning_star
- theory regarding supersymmetry.Morning_star
- ukit20
"Astrophysicists hypothesized dark matter because of discrepancies between the mass of large astronomical objects determined from their gravitational effects and the mass calculated from the "luminous matter" they contain: stars, gas, and dust....According to consensus among cosmologists, dark matter is composed primarily of a not yet characterized type of subatomic particle."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar…
A new kind of particle is a reasonable extrapolation from what we already know about the universe. The idea that people can communicate telepathically and affect objects far away from them with their minds isn't. It's a completely random non-sequitur that only someone who already wanted to believe in supernatural explanations would suggest.
- It could be their math is wrong or how they come up with numbers. Dark matter came out of being out of an accounting error.yurimon
- However one can ask can you come up with mass equation by smashing a whole into pieces?yurimon
- Alot of these equations are patching up to make old equations work.. keeping people employed n paid in universities.yurimon
- imagine being a tenure prof and you were wrong all your life...yurimon
- Like I said earlier, IF you had no experience or havent witnessed psychic phenomena then it foreign and inconceivableyurimon
- Sure, but there's also competition and a lot of incentive to prove new ideasukit2
- even if their is an explanation in science. it is often dismissed even though its an opportunity to explore.yurimon
- but science is missing. Look at the nazis. They merged spirit n science. their science was way more advance then americans.yurimon
- Morning_star0
------------------
A new kind of particle is a reasonable extrapolation from what we already know about the universe. The idea that people can communicate telepathically and affect objects far away from them with their minds isn't.I disagree. From what we know about the universe, and have measured and experienced in humans and animals, the existence of what we call psi effects are perfectly reasonable. The nature and mechanic of these psi effects is, on the other hand, a different question.
Show me the evidence > http://www.deanradin.com/evidenc…
- I see it as another sense. and the nature of how energy n frequencies interact with crystalline structuresyurimon
- ukit20
" the existence of what we call psi effects are perfectly reasonable. The nature and mechanic of these psi effects is, on the other hand, a different question."
That's kind of what I'm getting at though...if you can't begin to explain the nature and mechanics of it then it isn't reasonable. Not anymore or less reasonable than any other random explanation. It's like the Ancient Aliens guy who wants the explanation for everything to be aliens. Statistical anomaly, well clearly it must be psychic powers!
People have always wanted to believe that their minds are the center of the universe, when in fact that universe is a much weirder place and not based around humans at all.
- Morning_star0
"That's kind of what I'm getting at though...if you can't begin to explain the nature and mechanics of it then it isn't reasonable."
Again, this is EXACTLY the issue there is with Dark Matter. No one knows the nature of Dark Matter yet from your perspective it's OK to consider it as a pretty well-formed scientific reality and it isn't.
You can't dismiss one without having to dismiss the other. The same argument you used can be applied to DM. "We only know what 5% of the entire universe is therefore... Dark Matter and Energy"
Discard your prejudices and look at the evidence.
- ukit20
Meh...I feel like we're arguing in circles here. Look back at my earlier answers. I wouldn't consider "dark matter" to be an established theory, but the idea of a new kind of unknown particle seems reasonable based on what we already know, psychic powers is a big leap.
Anyway you seem to to believe pretty strongly in this...do you personally believe you have psychic abilities? Have you ever seen someone bend a spoon or predict the future? It shouldn't really require poring over statistics to prove this stuff...
- set0
I'm going to post this again.
- detritus0
“It shouldn't really require poring over statistics to prove this stuff... ”
It sort of should, though. Even if it's just a somewhat verifiable instance of One (not Son). That'd be a start.
Where's there evidence — any at all — of any any of this pseudo meta science in exhibition? Nowhere. Hence Randi's slightly farcical million dollar prize. It's not intended as Science, it's just intended to try and tempt some sort of evidence out of the woodwork.
At least Science knows that Dark Matter, et al, are hapless cludges, really in need of cleaning up. Hence, more Science.
That's kind of its point.
- It's only the scientific ignoratti who assume Science knows everything, that Science is comfortable with Dark Energiesdetritus
- Scientists (big S, seeing as we're there already) think the exact opposite.detritus
- Evidence galore: http://www.deanradin…Morning_star
- Shouldn't require statistics, because if what they were claiming was true, it should be easy to demonstrateukit2
- Morning_star0
"...but the idea of a new kind of unknown particle seems reasonable based on what we already know, psychic powers is a big leap"
This is where we disagree, it's not a big leap. Even if you take a very quick look at the link i provided above you'll see that there is a huge amount of empirical data and evidence supporting the existence of Psi Effects. Not to mention the tens of thousands of years that humans have been experiencing the phenomena.
Do I have psychic abilities? No more or less than any other human. Have i experienced someone bending a spoon? Yes, it's a neat party trick.
Have I seen someone predict the future? Not in the way you mean.However, the relatively common experience of NDEs (Near Death Experiences) raise the question of mind being seperate to the physical brain. There is some compelling evidence, particularly the 10 year study by the heart surgeon Dr Pim Van Lommel.
Dean Radins experiments concerning the influence of thought on the double slit experiment are fascinating.
And Rupert Sheldrakes series of experiments concerning the Sense of being stared at and Dogs that know when there owners are coming home are compelling.
Not to mention studies on the Placebo Effect, Murmeration, Herd Communication, Lactating Mothers (yep, it's a freaky thing)--------
"It shouldn't really require poring over statistics to prove this stuff... "
--------
How else would you give it scientific credibility?- Give up, honestly. Fruitless debate.set
- Fruitless as in people who cant comprehend without personal experience. where that is lackingyurimon
- As if any fucking religious nut has had ACTUAL experience with god, a miracle or an angel. We know it's fucking bullshit.monospaced
- The whole point of science is that someone is getting as close as possible to actual experience with something.monospaced
- Who mentioned religion? For someone with such a hatred for religions you bring it up more than anyone.Morning_star
- HAVE YOU READ THE ORIGINAL POST? THIS IS ABOUT RELIGION AND SCIENCEmonospaced
- I'm just going along with the original idea that science isn't a belief system... like religionmonospaced
- It has you believing none of the aforementioned stuff is real. How is that not a belief system...?set
- non belief isn't a belief system, like "off" isn't a channel on tvmonospaced
- mono, you claim "We know it's fucking bullshit." There's your belief right there. Or are you claiming you ACTUALLY know.Morning_star
- I KNOW there aren't angels or miracles, just like I know there isn't a Santa Claus or a monster in the closet at nightmonospaced
- Hahaha!monospaced
- "Do I have psychic abilities? No more or less than any other human." So basically no you haven't?ukit2
- You know, the difference between this and something like dark matter or the Higgs is that you would expect those to only be documented in extremely difficult experimental studies. Whereas psychic powers supposedly interact with our everyday lives, on a scale that people can see and experience directly.ukit2
- only be documented in extremely difficult experimental studies. Whereas psychic powers supposedly interact with our everyday lives, on a scale that people can see and experience directly.ukit2
- interact with our everyday lives, on a scale that people can see and experience directly.ukit2
- Honestly, I don't know,Morning_star
- And yet in all of years spent studying it, not a single video or straightforward demonstration of these amazing powers...kind of strange don't you think?ukit2
- amazing powers...kind of strange don't you think? :Pukit2
- I do however trust the results and interpretation of research that I've pointed out.Morning_star
- yurimon0
Listen guys relax and buy more scientifically proven stuff...science is the truth ok
- fucking dumbass, science also figured out the truth about thesemonospaced
- < Missing the point as alwaysset
- I didn't miss any point, I get the point. I may not have countered correctly, but yuri's argument isn't soundmonospaced
- Hey Mono, here's an idea. Why don't you come late to the party, make some ill-informed, generalist statements and then run away when someone challenges your perspective. Just a thought.Morning_star
- run away when someone challenges your second-hand perspective Just a thought.Morning_star
- I'm not late to the party, lolmonospaced
- :)Morning_star
- Gnash0
^^ wow, that's not science, that's advertising.
- don't confuse snake-oil salesmen with the scientific communityGnash
- but I do understand the point you are trying to make.Gnash
- How you know science you are getting isnt motivated by anything..yurimon
- Science is motivated by the same things we all are; money, fame, ego. But what was showed was advertising. not the sameGnash
- .. the sameGnash
- I do get it, though. science is wrong all the time.Gnash
- in fact, the key to science, is being wrongGnash
- yurimon0
ok... ok...
- ya, I would say that's generally true.Gnash
- most people don't have the inclination - or resources - to find out for themselvesGnash
- It works both ways. Look at homeopathy -- people lap that shit upGnash
- It works though.Morning_star
- Like placebos work.Morning_star
- homeopathy doesn't "work" lolmonospaced
- In your opinion mono, does the Placebo Effect work?Morning_star
- Morning Star is right. But it's the placebo effect that's working, not the homeo solutionsGnash
- and not for everyone that uses them.Gnash
- Homeopathy, in my opinion, is another way of dressing up Placebos. If it works, and it does, what's the harm.Morning_star
- The harm happens when someone believes it'll cure their cancer, or something like that.Gnash
- and they postpone, or avoid, treatments that have been proved effectiveGnash
- The placebo effect is definitely something the science and medical communities are aware of, because they sometimes work.monospaced
- but placebo should not be considered outside science, that would be stupid to think it wasmonospaced
- ukit20
^ If you don't trust scientists, then why would you trust ONE guy with a psychology degree who claims he's discovered psychic powers?
All I'm saying, extend the same skepticism you feel towards the government and global warming to Dean Radin and the ancient aliens guy...then at least you'lll be consistent.
- Just a point that science can fall in the way of mirroring religion if one was inclined to use to controlyurimon
