Clients are grinding me down...
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- forbes
Hey all
Been awhile since ive been here. The last few months of web design/dev has truly sucked. ton of work coming in but problems of all kinds have kept cropping up and im getting sick of it.
clients have really sucked the life out of me the last couple of months, dragging on projects with constant change requests, being rude, paying me late and just generally being a right pain in my ass.
ah. feels good to get that of my chest. ta!
what would you guys do
- fadein110
It happens. Bad couple of months, then some good months.
The cycle of life.
They pay the bills and this aint college :)
- GeorgesII0
You could always move to North Korea or make sure next time you send them your contract that it's written that after (insert number of modif), the other mod will cost X
good luck bro, we've been all there,
here are some support cat
- forbes0
ha cheers
its been tough cos i had a number of projects lined up but had to let 2 of them go because other projects got so overrun with client problems i ran out of time to start other projects.
so i've lost time (and money) over projects which went bad, and now lost money having to give away projects.
perhaps i should look at ways of generating extra income, so i can cut down client work some more...
- if you find the answer to less work please let me knowfadein11
- Continuity0
Part of this — I suspect — is that you're probably of the The Client Is Always Right school of freelancing, when it's definitely not the case. Sometimes, just standing up for one's self when it comes to project timings, scope creep and so on can lead to a much saner working life, as well as respect from clients. They've become so accustomed to seeing freelancers as people they can push around, that it's a sort of in-grained mentality.
Learn to say 'no' (in a professional way, of course) once in a while.
- forbes0
^^
I definitely need to do this more.
- inteliboy0
Sign contracts. And make sure scope creep and revisions are accounted for!
"Sure thing, though that'll be $X"
"Oh, okay, maybe let's do your option then"
- jtb260
Have better contracts.
- breadlegz0
I would get REALLY TIGHT contracts at the start of the project, plus 50% or more up at the start.
In the contract, I would state that there will be consequences of late payments or late content and that changes over the scope of the project will be charged.
It sounds harsh, but it really is a better way and the clients appreciate the professionalism.
- d_rek0
Make them pay for their transgressions. Literally.
- formed0
Most people are reasonable (some, not so much) and will respond to your emphasis about extra time.
If I am feeling like I don't want to straight out say it'll cost more I'll say something like "ok, we can do that, but it will take a significant amount of time to change things, given we've already done x, x and x."
About 75% of the time they'll say "ok, how much more would it cost?". Then 90% of that time they stick with the original direction.
Just about making sure client's understand that your time is valuable, and everything, including answering calls (and writing on QBN) takes time. All about communication, like most of life, annoying as that may be.
- webazoot0
Good advice above. Try an make sure you take a good break every so often too. When refreshed look at what happened and see what you could have done to either ensure things went smother or at least to make sure you were reimbursed for things that weren't your fault.
Currently working on a site that by my reckoning should have been launched at the end of last year if it weren't for client dragging feet and being generally undecisive so I do know where your coming from.
- kingsteven0
Heh, you're in Belfast doing the same thing I was last year. there is no fucking point. In one month last year I had a big (4 month) web project postponed indefinitely at last minute and had my own (unsuccessful) pitch for a project offered back to me by the studio that had 'won' (at half the value).
I quit freelance and the design industry and got a job in Queens building eLearning MOOCs. Still doing the same design/dev thing but i'm on a payroll with a pension, flexi-time and have a tricked out office in a mansion house - and at 5pm I get to go home and make music.
Saying that, mail me a link to your portfolio (link in profile) as I've been turning some good stuff away.
- fyoucher10
I think it's more than just a contract. You need to make them VERY aware of everything (amount of rev's included, late fees, etc), UPFRONT. Don't just hand them a contract and have them sign it. When you send it, make them aware of what they're signing. Write it in the email when sending the SOW/Contract. Then give them a call and walk them through it. I've found this gets rid of major headaches. Especially when it comes to payment. Tell them it'll be due on this specific day. On this day you'll have late fees and it'll be this much. Put this on your invoice too. Instead of adding a clause to your invoice that states late fees, make them aware. So instead, write, amount due $XXX if paid by XX/XX/2013, pay $XXX if paid by XX/XX/2013. Something like that. If you're sending links to design work, let them know what revision they're on and how many are left. For example, "Design Revision (1 of 3)".
A lot of clients just sign it and don't realize what's included.
- jtb260
Another good practice is to separate billing form deliverable milestones. Get 30% up front and then bill periodically - once a month is good, and bill based on the amount of the project is complete (don't necessarily have to provide insight into how that is determined, but some will ask and we just tell them it's based on our estimation.)
Also I'd echo the comments of others about spelling out exactly what the client gets for the money. If you only tell them that 'we'll design a website for $xx,xxx' you're asking to get screwed. Rounds of revisions and how overages are going to be handled.
Essentially, you should read this: http://www.abookapart.com/produc…
- albums0
is she cute?
- vaxorcist0
RE; signed contracts... many design-oriented things can be really spelled out and you can nail everything down at the start, that's great.
But some dev projects (especially for startups) are inherently experimental and evolve no matter what you do, there has to be a way to split the risk with your client/partner, rather than get a lot of "pin those hours on whoever is a worse negotiator"
I'd love to hear some thoughtful ideas about how to do this....
- mantrakid0
explain that before the initial handshake. express that you are aware that you cant always pin down every aspect of a project especially if the client is unwilling or unable to visualize all possible hurdles and side details that may arise in the process. State our initial estimate is for the accomplisment of the following tasks and that additional tasks or development that arise throughout the course of the project will be dealt with on a per-item basis. Explain that sometimes new developments can be worked into an existing project without much (or sometimes without any) changes to the original budget / cost. But explain that sometimes the initial understanding was under certain assumptions and now that you're at that stage of the project, it seems to be a bigger job than was originally translated, and give them a compromise:
- If you want to keep within your original costs, here is where you need to simplify & here are some options on how I recommend we proceed.
- If you want to expand the original estimate to include these new details, here is an updated cost to get them completed.Its straightforward and super simple, and super stress free because all you have to do is be transparent and open with the client from the first moment. The second any confusion, doubt, or hesitation comes up on your end as to whether or not you can complete their project within their cost expectations or within their required timeline, you simply call them and explain it. They will respect you for being open and honest and upfront about their issue, and you will not be stressed out wondering how you're going to give them the world without totally ripping yourself off or wasting sleepless nights doing work you think is unbillable because you have a weird level of guilt probably for the fact that you just simply didnt give the project enough thought or maybe didn't clearly listen to what the client wanted in the first place.
- e-wo0
Read Rework, take a week off, and reconsider what you want to really work on. Chances are you only love (and profit from) 20% of what you do. Refocus on that.
- jtb260
Vaxorcist, I know what you mean. Mantrakid is right, but when you have a broad set of goals rather than a clear cut deliverable it can be tough to draw up a accurate proposal that won't be subject to frequent change orders. As priorities shift and out of scope items are requested constantly writing up change orders can be a burden to the project. There is a better way for this type of work.
Rather than a proposal that details specific deliverables or milestones, when working on projects that are run agile it's possibly better to bill against effort instead of deliverables. It's akin to working hourly - but I'd simplify it to a price per week or month (you might need to specify how many hours a week they get in return). You are being deployed against an outcome, the client can change priorities all they want. The client is required to assume a little more risk here, but that's the price of having an open-ended project. It requires they, or at least you have good project management skills as well.
If they want a fixed bid then you need to get them to agree to a comprehensive requirements gathering process. In this case charge them a small fixed price for a discovery phase. Take a week or two to figure out everything they want in Version 1. Then give them a proposal for how much it'll cost to do that. Issue change orders to the proposal as they request new or out of scope features.