NO on Prop 8
- Started
- Last post
- 85 Responses
- JazX0
Theater director forced out because he backed Prop. 8
http://www.latimes.com/entertain…- he resigned you assclown. he wasnt forced out.threadpost
- yeah right, my @ssJazX
- yeah rightcuke426
- JazX0
Secret gay 'cabinet' behind $ to anti-marriage movement
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/ar…- hey fuck-face, they were anti prop 8. not anti marriage, They spent millions for PRO marriage.threadpost
- you're a waste of breath.
QBN: IGNORE BUTTON PLEASE IGNORE BUTTON PLEASE IGNORE BUTTON PLEASE IGNORE BUTTON PLEASE IGNORE BUTTON PLEASE IGNORE BUTTON PLEASEthreadpost - IGNORE BUTTON PLEASE IGNORE BUTTON PLEASE IGNORE BUTTON PLEASE IGNORE BUTTON PLEASE IGNORE BUTTON PLEASE IGNORE BUTTON PLEASEthreadpost
- I think Jeff wants the 'ignore' button back...akoni
- ninjasavant0
A debate transcript:
Me:
This pretty much sums me up, I find myself thinking the same exact thing on a daily basis. This is a sad time for humanity when the perpetrators of hate are allowed to flourish. Whether you support terrorism through violence, innuendo, or political action you are all the same and you make this a difficult world to live in and I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry for us all. For the sake of our population educate yourself, have faith and empathy for your fellow human being, and somehow gain the ability to see beyond yourself. Please.A:
How can you have faith in something carnal and imperfect (Human race), isn't that setting your self up for a fall? Empathy and Sympathy yes, but not faith.I am sorry on behalf of "real" God loving Christians that your world and views have become so jaded....I am truley sorry, but do not give up hope in the One who has called you and wants a real relationship with you. He will always be there whether you believe or not, He knows your inner most cares and doubts.
J:
Something I have really learned this year is that yes God is a loving God but he also is a God to be feared and the truth is God hates sin- he hated it so much he sent his son to die for that sin. America is teaching tolerance and pluralism but not all things are tolerable- the Bible speaks of becoming a reprobate mind and leaving natural affections of men and women and speaks against it as sin-- STILL Christ died for ALL people...just like he died for me-- a wicked, lousy, sinner and I want to state, the homosexuals sin is not any worse than mine-- however the very act is not right and my (our) acceptance of this sin as normal is reprobate it because it is wrong..I don't hate homosexuals, this is not about religion this is about the living WORD of God clearly says and about a people's rebellion against the true God they do not understand, and we as Christians are supposed to be a shining light- not to condemn them but to seek and to save the lost. Sometimes with love--But also with truth. Robert, it sounds like you have compassion and that is awesome and we should all. I am not saying any person should be denied love- but with God there is order, there is purpose--there is HOPE-- people need "things" to fill a void that should be filled with God- and you are right-some Christians do not eminate the grace of God-- but they are also sinners-- the Bible says- ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free-- the God that Keith Olberman speaks is not the God I worship-- its the humanistic view point of God--he isn't a universal God, like a universal Walmart store he is the ONE and ONLY GOD-- and anyone who knows this God will know the truth and it isn't binding its freeing-- I wish I could put this better because I know it sounds condemning but like A said, remember the God of your youth- it is true- whether anyone believes or not- He is there and he is never changing- he loves the sinner- hates the sin.
K:
How can you say it's not about religion and then say it is about living the word of God clearly? That seems one and the same to me. So besides living the word of your (yours, not the one true) god...why does this matter to you? How does this affect you? Why take the rights away from some people because of the beliefs of others? And how do you determine when to follow the exact word of god and what the bible says? I shudder to think of the horrible injustices that we would accept in the world if everyone lived the exact word of your 'one true god'."I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts.
Me:
There's a lot of information in these comments and I could go point for point with what has been said but I feel that would be ineffective and fruitless. What I will say though is that nothing you've said above make the case that the civil right of gay couples to marry is anyone's business. If Christians are to be a light unto the world then it is their responsibility to not be gay, it says nowhere in the Bible that the teachings of Paul are to be written into legislation. In fact the epistles were written to the churches of the entitled people, not the governments. The churches were to set the example, this example would, theoretically, influence the people of the land.But the crux of this argument hinges on the notion that the Bible as the self asserted word of God. This argument I won't get into because it is a different topic altogether but it does get at a fundamental shift in what I have taken as a world view that brought me to where I am today. It seems to me that conservatives and religious alike cling steadfastedly, despite any evidence to the contrary, to the world view they feel is correct. For example, this world is by God and for God and everything therein is God's will. This is the view of basically every religion. I choose to live in the world that exists, as it exists. The Bible tells me that there shouldn't be gay people, reality tells me that they do exist, so I choose to accept them as reality and treat them accordingly, as people.
I don't feel I'm jaded, I'm just really disappointed. The way I see it is that this world and the people in it are what we've got. A faith based concept of a deity that wants a "relationship" with me is not tangible. I don't feel empty, I don't feel like I'm missing anything, and I don't feel like I have some part of me that needs to be filled by anything, God or otherwise. I'm not sure what makes people believe this but the good of humanity and the chance to do something great with and for my fellow human is enough to make me feel fulfilled. When I was in school, I was building rewards that I would cash in when I got a job, but that didn't mean I kept my head in a future and theoretical career. I enjoyed every minute of college and made the most of it. Now that I have a career I'm building rewards that will cash in when I retire. But that doesn't mean I live my professional life as if nothing mattered but my retirement. I make the most of my job and love every minute of it. Similarly building rewards in heaven shouldn't mean you ignore the world as it exists. So I don't see our points of view being terribly incompatible.
But let's get back to the matter at hand. Nothing in the Bible, Torah, Q'uran, Constitution, or Bill of Rights gives any logical reason why gays should be legislatively discluded from the same rights enjoyed by everyone else. Nothing. This legislation was conceived and supported by individuals acting on prejudice. It seems curious to me that we as a society will go to war over financial interests, we will risk our lives to protect our financial interests, our law enforcement will risk their lives to protect money, but then this resource will be spent in insane amounts for the purpose of legislating discrimination. Monogamy is a biological imperative, it was not conceived in the Bible, it is not owned by religion. It is a civil ceremony and a civil right. Why stop with marriage? Why not deny them other rights? Let's make gays go to different schools and make their votes count for 3/5 of a person.
At the end of the day this is just spiteful discrimination based a group's insistence on being right and it makes me sad, it makes me angry, and it makes me hope someday we can all live as people together on this planet because whether there's a heaven or not, we all still live here together.
J:
I want to respond to Kelly first- the fruit of religion is a bunch of legalistic people pointing fingers- in other words tradition must be followed in order to know God-- but the truth about God is that NO religion leads to God-- Jesus Christ is the ONLY thing/being that leads to God and that is through belief in the fact he died on the cross for all mans sin and is alive today on the right hand of his father. Again- every body has a choice- God already gave people the choices to make, no law need regulate those choices- but he does make reference to what is right and wrong. The problem with agendas like prop 8 is they infringe on the rights of others and it puts imorallity out there as something normal and ok. When the men who were ready to stone the woman who committed sin did not because of Jesus response to them- he who is without sin cast the first stone- when he turned to the woman-- he did not say, "aww, its ok. Its your preference to sleep around. I accept that what you do."No- he responded by saying-GO and SIN NO MORE. Did he love her- yes- did he forgive her-yes- but he also directed her to stop doing the imoral thing that she was doing. When you become a child of God you are no longer your own- your life- your body, your mind belong to God and again God will nto give you over to a reprobate mind-
Rob-
I love that you are passionate I truly do. But you know what bothers me? The fact that, although it makes you sad that gays are discriminated against- what makes me sad is the millions of babies that are aborted every year and who really cares about their rights as living beings? Rob- this is a MORALITY issue- and the objective is to get rid of Christianity--NOT to stop gay marraige-- don't you see the agenda that is happening-- what people think is-- oh Christians are against gay marrraige so they are not good people--all these things are leading to universal healthcare, universal financial system and ultimately universal religion- these things have been prophesied about and it is time for Christians to stand FIRM in their faith because it is promised that Christians will suffer persecutions for what they believe which has been true through out all time--the JUST live by FAITH not by science or humanistic view points. The truth is Rib-- what we do here DOES matter in eternityAlso, there is no argument about the Bible being th Word of God. We most definetely could argue the Bible all day long and I am sad to see so many Christians have been duped into reading different versions-- it has been a vice of the devil and it changes doctrine and fundamentals-- it creates a universal God- as Oberman so wonderfully put it-- it creates a God who tolerates everything- and again he LOVES PEOPLE but he HATES sin. What we put into legislation matters in determining all of our rights- basically if you don't accept homosexuality you are looked at as a gender-racist bigot. That is ludicrous--I also have a right NOT to accept sin and to vote against it. And again Romans 1:25 sums it up great: "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever."
I know the argument goes back to seperation of church and state but this is a controversial issue not a law-- it is no where in the Constitution orBill of Rights-- not to mention the Constitution is based on Exodus 23. Our own laws come from the Bible-- all of this legislation serves the purpose of getting God out of our society and changing the Constitution- you can believe what college tells you- Its funny @ timothy speaks of these very same issues:
2Tim.3
[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
[6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
[8] Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
[9] But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
[10] But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
[11] Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
[12] Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.Just remember- as gay is being "discriminated" against so are Christians
Me:
We're arguing two different things here. I'm saying that as a matter of civil right gays deserve the same rights, freedoms, and privileges guaranteed under the Constitution. You're arguing that support for anything you don't believe in constitutes discrimination and a devious agenda against your whole belief system. This is another POV that pushed me away from the religious conservative viewpoint. Its a silly thing to think that giving the same rights to gays has anything to do with a plot to undermine Christianity. Universal healthcare or finances has nothing to do with that? Its a wedge issue that politicians use to pit us against each other. To think that it has anything to do with Christians is self centered and silly.When did abortion come into this? You keep changing the subject to everything but the discussion at hand. The fact is that gays just wanted the civil right to marry. They didn't want to force it on your church or teach it to your kids or make you recant your religion. They wanted the same rights as you or anyone else have in our country. Sin is a subjective thing, you can talk about absolute truth all day but if the Bible were so absolute we wouldn't have so many interpretations of it. It all boils down to why do you care? How does this actually affect you? How does this in any way constitute discrimination towards you? These arguments you're making are anecdotal and all over the place. Our laws may have been based on Christian principles but thats because all religions have a basic tenets of truth, and they are pretty much common sense things that you don't need the fear of hell or the love of God to realize. We can get into the details and interpretations of Scripture but it doesn't change the fact that gay people exists, and are PEOPLE. People like you and me, and when I look around I see other people, and I live my life to do right by them, and hope they do the same for me.
J:
Let me put it in a simple way, taking an act that is not normal and passing a law that says it is does affect me-- it changes morality and normalicy-maybe not for me but for my children and so forth. This is what happens when a society no longer finds itself accountable to any authority higher than public opinion or the ruling of some judge.
Lets go back to the reprobate mind-- if we deny gays be married are we not denying incesstual marraige, are we not denying palygamy, or how about animal marraige, or men and women who want to marry and have sex with children-- all these things are just as unnatural as homosexuality, yet people who want to live this way are discriminated against--aren't these people, people too? Don't these people deserve rights too?
Not just that Robert-- but as critical thinkers discrimination is sometimes a good thing. Accepting everything is detrimental- ask a war strategist-- not everything can be allowed or accepted- it opens the world up to chaos.As far as religion is concerned- it does matter- first your faith must be firm before an issue like morality can be argued. Second, marraige was created for a man and a women-- not just that Rob- but marraige is also a symbol a picture of God and Israel and Christ and the Church (not common sense- but the amazing order of Gods establishment) It is not for mere personal happiness and pleasure.
Consequently, Marriage is a public institution and proposals that could harm the institution of marriage are subjected to the same sort of objective analysis that we give any public policy question.
Let me also state-I do care about people, I heard it said, when it comes to hate the sin, love the sinner-- it is compassion together with frank recognition of the nature of a disordered condition.
Not only that, but here are some interesting facts- the suicide rates of homosexual people are much higher than heterosexual people (and not because of discrimination), homosexual men's life span is much lower due to AIDS, prone to cancer, STD's due to the high degree of promiscuity displayed by male homosexuals. And to be blunt the rectum is not designed for sex. It is very fragile and its tendency to tear and bleed is one factor making anal sex such an efficient means of transmitting the AIDS and hepatitis viruses. Both male and female homosexuals have a higher number of partners than even promiscuous heterosexuals.
The ultimate ulterior motive is to redefine marraige which in turns opens it up for even more scrutiny and enables it to be a mere thing of convenience as we see in Hollywood day after day. . There has never been an unlimited right to marry in this country. States have provided minimum age requirements and have insisted that both persons be unmarried, that one be male and one female, that they not be too closely related, and that adequate public notice and records be kept.
Legislation, if it wants to do anything should be working to repair broken homes, drug abuse, violence and so forth that are and have been allowed to destroy us one by one- exceptance of gay unions or marraige isn't a step up its a step back-- its in addition to all the decensatizing we have already been subjected to for over 30 years.Me:
So I think after all of this we can agree on one thing: we have rather impassioned viewpoints about which we are both convinced. But I think that may also be the root cause of our disagreement, the fact that we are so convinced and our bias of reasoning come from seemingly incompatible sources. Let's look at a few key points of contention:Your ultimate authority comes from your interpretation of the KJV Bible. Mine comes from observation and secular reasoning. This demonstrates an ever baser separation between us that you give ultimate responsibility to God and assume the responsibility of representing his will. I give ultimate responsibility to chance, cause/effect, and my response to these events. I believe the world is arbitrary and random insofar as I believe there is a logical chain of events that has produced everything that is, was, or will be but that chain is often murky at best and things can seem random. In my view this randomness is where God exists in a religious viewpoint but that is only my opinion. I think that religion gives responsibility to God for the seemingly arbitrary whereas I don't see any support for attributing natural phenomena to a higher power and don't believe that any book or code of ethics could be sourced from a higher power. This just are as they are. So both you and I are bringing knives to gun fights. We have the weaponry for a debate on our own terms but these weapons are incompatible and ineffective on the other's stage.
The next concept is that homosexuality is a choice. I do not believe this. I believe a person CAN choose the behavior attributed to homosexuality but they don't tend to choose this behavior their whole lives and I discount them from this argument. Homosexual behavior is exhibited by animals as well as humans and I wouldn't think that animals make conscious decisions. And given my first point above its clear that I wouldn't accept the notion that homosexuality is somehow "sin." The way I see it, conception is a tricky thing. We're all basically girls until roughly the 6th week of development when the Luteinizing horomone does its thing or not and sex begins to develop. At this time gender also begins to take shape. Biologically the brains of males and females are different. Their wired differently and sexual attraction has been shown to be a function of brain activity. But just the same as physical genitalia and glands can develop with a wide range of final states, and their hormone secretion can be affected which in turn affects sexual impulses, the brain is even more prone to variation. There's nothing to say that variation in the brain can't affect sexuality just as much as physical appearance. Its all the same cells, just different shapes. This isn't based on any kind of study beyond my own research within my physiology class. Its anecdotal but its the undercurrent of my views on the subject based on observation and reasoning.
Next up, civil rights. As far as I'm concerned what happens in the bedroom between two consenting adults is their business. Fine, sodomy is illegal in a number of states for whatever reason but by that logic so was whites marrying blacks, and blacks drinking from white only drinking fountains, or Armenians owning property in certain parts of California. Legislation is not a moral imperative. I disagree that the founding documents of this country are somehow religious documents, or even religiously based. Believe me, I've read the Constitution. I have it as a book somewhere and I'm sure when I find it I'll also find my copy of The Age of Reason by Thomas Moore which is an awesome book and highly recommended. The thing is that the vast majority of founding fathers were Deists. God was a deference to them but I'm sure we disagree on this subject with our own documentation to support our opinions.
When we put it all together we come to a pretty clear foundation of disagreement: you believe in God, I don't; you believe in the Bible, I don't; you believe homosexuality is a choice and thereby a sin, I don't; you believe the laws of this country are based on and should reflect a Biblical morality, I don't.
To me thats the crux of the matter because I don't see either of us somehow abandoning what makes up our cores and the values we hold as sacrosanct so lets shift the conversation here a bit. Where is the common ground? We're both people, have a similar understanding of each other, I'm taking none of this personally and assume you to be doing the same. So on the subject of secular vs religious world views, where do we meet? How do we come together on this? I pose the question because I want there to be one so badly. I want the ability to reach out and bridge these gaps, I don't want a divided country or a divided species. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as I think this is a more fruitful conversation to move to than to argue the minor points of our own conflicting views. Maybe if we solve a bigger picture the smaller truths will become clear.
A:
During the day I work for a pre school and please understand society does want to teach it to as lille as three years old!
I don't know about you but any child should not have to learn or be forced to learn about ANY sexual orientation whether Heterosexual or Homosexual. Kids are losing their innocense earlier and earlier, so the notion that children will not be taught is false. Confusion is from Satan, that is the root of all of this, Confusion. Rights and marriage are two different things.Me:
My girlfriend is a director for after school child care for the YMCA so I’m pretty keen on what is going on in education. Pre-school is not regulated by the federally or state sponsored education system so they are free teach what they please. The sponsored education system doesn't teach marriage. It may come up but it is not part of curriculum, gay or straight. Allowing or disallowing marriage makes it a right in that it's inclusion policy is set by legislation. The confusion thing just doesn't make sense.A:
If and when you have children you may think twice about your response. Marriage has no seperation of church and state. Weddings are either performed in a Church or a Court house, so if the United states would like to truley separate church and state then they will have to ban getting married at a church.
I'm done on this topic because it is a never ending ping pong match, when both parties involved are firm on their views. Look at the latest news on a "man" who is really a woman gave birth to a child. tell me there is not confusion!Me:
Its not confusion, its just stupid. You can get surgery to make your outward appearance to be anything you want. I could get a rhino horn attached to me if I wanted but it doesn't make me a rhino. That person kept their internal organs intact and its just a dumb publicity stunt by people who need attention.By the same reasoning you’re using though, a ship's captain can also perform marriages. Churches assert their authority to perform weddings but it still has to be legally recorded with the County Clerk. As far as the government is concerned marriage is a property contract, there's no nobility to it. We're not asking for your church or your God to sanction the wedding, we're asking the government to grant the same contractual obligations and privileges to same sex couples.
For some reason, J, I'm not seeing your last post, Jen, so I'll repost here and reply to it:
"Robert-- I want to repost what you wrote: "So on the subject of secular vs religious world views, where do we meet? How do we come together on this? I pose the question because I want there to be one so badly. I want the ability to reach out and bridge these gaps, I don't want a divided country or a divided species. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as I think this is a more fruitful conversation to move to than to argue the minor points of our own conflicting views." Firstly, know this...I love you as a dear friend--we always had great conversations and I still have a great deal of your comments in my poetry books--- on that note-- I want to reiterate this to you-- I am not proclaiming any religion to you- it IS my faith and trust in a just God- a God who established this world from the very beginning when it was without shape or form-- because as much as science tries to disprove God the fact of the matter every element of everything is the blue prints of God and his handiwork"What I think you've touched upon is what I referred to earlier as the self-centered aspect of religion when you said "as much as science tries to disprove God . . ." If you take nothing else away from this debate let it be this: science has no interest in disproving God. Individuals may have their own agenda but the foundation of science is to document, quantify, and predict natural phenomena based on the rules and laws inherent in the observable system. Period. There is no other agenda, it is solely based on what is observable and measurable. Anything that defies explanation is approached theoretically. There is no other systematic motive.
How this relates to your statement is that religions tend to take a self centered view in that they are the center and focus of anything that happens anywhere. So any theory or action put forth that does not fit into the interpretation of a given situation as dictated by the Bible or its believers is constituted as an attack. Whether the perpetrators know it or not they are attacking God and as such should be fought with vehemence. When in actuality most people don't give a thought to it. Lets look at the example of Galileo.
In the 1500s (give or take), the accepted knowledge regarding the earth was sourced only from the Bible which referred to the circle of the Earth which obviously interpreted in its context set the Earth squarely in the middle of the universe. This was accepted science as dictated by the church. Galileo, through observable phenomena, reasoned out that the sun was the center of the universe and stated so. We now know this to be true but for his efforts Galileo was banished to home imprisonment for the rest of his life for taking a position contrary to what had been interpreted from the Bible.
The point I'm making is that while the Bible may make concrete statements regarding morality and the Christian view of metaphysics and how it relates to a code of conduct as a result. But in the realm of directly observable physical phenomena it is not suited for, nor do I think it was ever intended to be, an authority on the subject. To be perfectly frank, the details of scientific concepts like ocular perception, botany, genetics, and other scientific concepts are articulated more succinctly and closer to correct in the early teachings of Buddha (Pali sources) than the Bible.
And I believe that herein lies the common ground. I feel that science goes about its business observing and quantifying which makes religion feel attacked so it goes on the offensive against science which defends itself with more attacks. I think the two can exist harmoniously. Science can continue observing and quantifying, religion needs only to adopt the findings as more proof for the greatness of their God.
But what about things like the age of the earth and evolution? Well, going back to what I said before, the Bible is vague at best when it comes to the details of how it works scientifically, so why feel threatened? Who's to say that in the time of the creation it couldn't have taken a period of time beyond what we have recorded? Why couldn't evolution been taking place in that time as well? The Bible is vague on the subject of celestial time. We call a day the period of the earth's rotation but all that is said in Genesis is that light and dark are separated and the morning and evening were the first day. There was no planet or observers mentioned as context. This is a whole other argument but the point is that God who gave you the gift of salvation also gave you the gift of Reason and to deny reason to prefer faith is wasting the key gift that separates you from animals.
Now I'm sure you're probably thinking "Lean not unto thine own understanding but in all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct your paths." To me this is a statement of morality, not science. Like I said, we have the gift of intelligence, we use it every day. There's nothing in the Bible that says we should limit it. There are some who will focus only on the knowledge aspect of the world. That is their choice and their right, but that doesn't stop you from accepting the observable and quantifiable as existing for the glory of God.
Science seeks to explain the world as it exists. If something exists then it was put there by God, correct? If evidence points to evolution, than perhaps it was God who gave the ability to evolve to life to be adaptable. I'm speculating but you see where I'm going.
To bring this back to the topic at hand, homosexuality is an observable phenomena in humans with the ability to reason and animals without the ability to reason. Given the scientific method that makes animals the control group and humans the experimental group and the evidence stacks up to support it as a natural occurring phenomena. What I think it comes down to is not whether homosexuality is a choice or not but the way in which Christianity has claimed marriage. The marriage of a man and woman is, as you said, seen as a union under God symbolically representing the relationship of God and man. That's fine, no one wants to take that away from you. The gay marriage proposals never said they expected churches to perform the ceremonies. The state views marriage as a contractual obligation between two consenting adults which guarantees certain rights and privileges. All the gay couples were ever asking for had nothing to do with religion, education, or even acceptance. All they wanted was the same protections and privileges under the law of the land guaranteed to all adults of this country. That was it. My indignation lies in what I see as the irrational denial of rights to a rational request. There's no nobility or morality to it for me. What two consenting adults what to do with their lives is their own business. I can still get married and I can do it in a church before God if I want and so can you. I can teach my children about whatever I want to teach them about and so can you. I will have to face the difficult reality that I will have to teach them about violent people and how their capacity for violence will ultimately affect them, but that it is up to them to not be violent and to not delight in the activity of violent people. Similarly you will have to face the difficult reality that you will have to explain to your children that homosexuals exist and that they should never delight in the activities of homosexuality and should never be homosexuals themselves, and that is your right as provided by our laws. But the difference, the big difference, is that while violent people will affect us all, the ability for gays to have the same contractual obligations and protections under our law will never actually personally affect you. Their ability to marry doesn't infringe upon your rights in the least and doesn't affect you or your family any more than their basic existence already does. State sanctioned discrimination won't support your case any better than your Scriptures can. And for the very least of these reasons it seems sad to me that an entire class of people that do exist in nature are denied basic human rights that have been seen as fundamental in fights against discrimination in the past.
I hope that one day we as the religious and the secular can truly bridge our differences because they are superficial and based on misunderstanding and lack of tolerance on both sides. I very much think that we can work together far more efficiently than we work against each other.
- JazX0
Gay fascists want to ban free speech, punish religious supporters of Prop 8
http://www.latimes.com/entertain…