Client revisions?
- Started
- Last post
- 21 Responses
- statik
What do you think?
the Client hasn't really got an idea of what they want...they just want concepts from me, but want to tweak them for many revisions until it feels right to them...and they want a flat project rate.
Has anyone else come accross the revisions nightmare or do you set limited rounds?
Not sure how to go about explaining that the concept is a bit of a blur to begin with, you want a flat project fee and want to change things many times until it hits the mark...I could be doing this all year...!! and yet I don't want to scare them by charging revisions by the hour...surely i'll go broke otherwise??
advice?
- MrOneHundred0
If I may. Just say no. It benefits both you and the client to set out the scope of each stage of the project and the costs associated therein. You WILL be working on it all year. You charging them for revisions is the deterrent for them to get their shit together and prevent the aimless months of blindly stabbing in the dark.
- ukit0
Theoretically, you could be their slave for the rest of your life. Just say no.
- statik0
I agree, and yet I really want this project, it can open many doors for me...I just need a way to communicate to the client about the importance of controlling revisions without them being scared and thinking I'll drop them in the shit with something they don't like/want.
thanks for the input Mr
- jaykay0
why not attempt to propose a set amount of revisions within a given timeframe. Haven't the clients asked for a deadline or timeline for this project and more importantly I think you should stress that there IS a timeframe ie: first round=3weeks, 2nd round revisions=2 weeks, 3rd round execution=2 weeks = total 7 week project. Add a clause in your work agreement/contract (you have that right?!?) that states x amount of dollars for time/revisions that causes the project to extend past the 7 week timeframe. Time=money and endless revisions = insanity
jus my two pennies
- Good point. Time does = money. If they can’t understand that that goes both ways, fuck ’em.MrOneHundred
- forgot to add - get a fucking deposit on this gig, somethin smells fishy and I haven't been to Red Lobster recently!jaykay
- DCDesigns0
Set it up front. Give them X amount of designs, 3 to 5 max. When/if they pick one tell them they get three revisions in the flat rate you set at the beginning. After that, set a fee for each additional revision Make it clear and simple, and get it in writing.
- statik0
good advice jaykay...
also, they haven't specified a deadline, they're very open, I did suggest a 3 week time frame (for the project fee we agreed on, this is generous) and they didn't get back to me for weeks, when they did, no mention of the time frame I suggested just additional agreement terms from their half i.e. we may go trhough many revisions before landing on a final..
definately got me thinking tho...I need a non threatening approach to which they'd be ok with... I'll keep thinking.. thanks guys
- don't equate terms with being threatening, that's just being a smart business person - inho there is nothing threatening about discussing and finalizing the scope of a project because when you get screwed then you'll wish you'd ironed out the details in advance - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure -jaykay
- VectorMasked0
Use examples if you can. Some people need to be explained things like kids.
For example..., many people think they can just get your files after weeks of hard work.
But when people go to restaurants, do they expect the Chef to give them their recipes, and knowledge obtained through education, experience and sacrifices?or, in case of revisions, content, documents required from the clients to start a project... Tell them it's like a construction. You need to know how much content you need in order to plan something, other wise... Would someone tell the architects after all the building has been finished... "I don't like it. Please add 6 balconies here, and there"... The architect would be like... "well we should have known this before... there's not enough structure and weight to add balconies... and balconies need to be held from the main structure... they can't just be inserted"
With revisions... simple, make it clear from the start. Every business and indudtry has it's limits, and nobody will keep working for free until somebody is satisfied. The logic behind economics would fall apart... Say, it's 4,000 bucks for this project. If they want more revisions... then You should say, that the requests would fit a 6,000 budget. Say it was budgeted at 4,000 for a reason. Or offer, a hourly rate.
Reason with them if they would expect to be handed 20 dishes at a restaurant until the saltiness and juiciness of the dish is right?I myself tend to blame this problems on the lack of communication between the client and the designer. I am a strong believer that A designer should talk to them clearly from the beginning regarding from......colours (pantone or just full colour) and the differences there's between inks and shit and que accuracy expected..., to how the work flow works and how this business works.
- boobs0
You've included The Main Ingredient in the Recipe for Disaster:
"the Client hasn't really got an idea of what they want"
Until these people either let you guide them to make a decision about what they want, or they make a decision about what they want, I'd steer clear of them.
- Yep. It's all about the initial phase. The "talking/planning". Deadlines, workflows, noob questions need to be clearVectorMasked
- VectorMasked0
There's a need for us, designers, no make it clear that this is a business. Just like other business have their own rules, method of working, etc... that we all have to follow wether we like to not...
Designing is a job too and and industry and there's thing the client need to get and adhere to.Sadly this one is hard to make it clear without sounding like and asshole
- statik0
great advice again...this is only my 5th project as a freelancer, due to the fact I don't want to loose this job I'm getting all messed up and not thinking clearly.
Definately some great approaches here, thanks again..I'll review these more and get back to the client tomorow. Cheers.
- Jeermid0
Set out the precedent from the start. 2 or 3 design concepts. 3 revisions of the chosed concept... and hourly rate after that. This way everyone buys into the project. The client knows they only have limited attempts to get it right before they go into hourly rate so they BUY IN to the project early. As a result you get better feedback quicker and the project wrapped up sooner and within budget :)
- VectorMasked0
Yeah... it's about how it's dealt at the beginning.
It's like you need to sit down with them look at them staright into their eyes, grab their hands and go like... "Repeat with me..., this budget works only with 3 revisions..., cmon say it with me... 3 revisions, other wise we won't make it on time"
- MrOneHundred0
Also what you can do is fashion a sort-of home-made knife from and old spoon or shard of hard plastic, hide in your ass so the screws won’t find it and... er, oops, wrong thread.
- hahah cell block HJnr_Madison
- actually that's exactly how i solve the client revision problem...airey
- I was hoping someone would make that oh so tenuous connection.MrOneHundred
- johndiggity0
why not sit down with them and write a brief? you can't be expected to solve their problem without outlining what their problem is. figure it out together, both parties sign off on it and go from there.
- mikotondria30
It sounds bad initially, I've got to say..
I had an eerily similar experience recently, and I have a suspicion you may have been the next designer this particular client went to...
They had no logo, nothing ever printed or designed for their brand, which consisted of a the company name, which they had invented because it was a 'foreign' word for some generally quite cool left-field principles.
So all we had to run on was their name, what that meant, and the type of work they did. Similarly this could have opened a lot of doors for us, but that means absolutely nothing to the process of trying to design something for them. Sure, we could knock out 'artistic' visions that communicated our idea of what we'd want IF it was our company, but of course the client's vision of how they want to brand themselves is entirely different, and stuck only in their head, in a shifting formless cloud of ideas that they gradually reveal more of by process of elimination when they see the 10th idea that you present them with. By this time of course, they've used up all of the money you've got so far, but you've gone over and above the amount of work that would make this a reasonable business proposition..sound familiar ?
By the end, and by 'end' I mean the 15th idea, which you KNOW is a sound concept given everything they've decided to tell you about the latest idea they've told you they think their company is about, but which they knock back, leaving you in a financial hole, facing some serious self-doubt about your ability to conceptualise and produce. Client ends relationship with sour feeling that you weren't the right person for the job, and that they've wasted the money they paid you to produce something they didn't want, so the doors you envisioned opening for you quietly close again, which is worse than them not having been opened, and feel like a turd.
There's only so far you can go without knowing what it is the customer wants, if they don't know then it's not your job to decide for them, and they won't appreciate it if you do, even if your ideas are better than theirs.
- trooper0
i agree a set amount of time for a design, everything aFTER Is on an hourly rate
- TResudek0
I'd pass on the job altogether. That is a red flag for a client that will never be happy. If you must take the work, charge a LOT. Mark my works, A LOT. Becuase you will be working on this thing for a long time and it will not be fun.
Also, provide for an exit. Even if you take it and charge a high rate, you will want out after a while. So, plan to get paid in increments that allow for an exit.
- monospaced0
I was going to write a response in hopes of adding meaningfully to this discussion and helping statik (since I've been through this before, as many of you have), but you guys have all the bases covered. I've gotta say kudos to one of the better design threads in a long time.
Alright, now you all can ruin it.
- jaykay0
Here's a great resource that includes a CD with files to use -
Business and Legal Forms for Graphic Designers by Tad Crawford and Eva Doman Bruck - the work agreement/contract form is worth it alone and gives great examples of terms that you never think of
- blackspade0
I have this exact same problem right now