The Whacko Compartment

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  • mikotondria30

    SO do you believe in this hocum through faith OR evidence, as you say, Flagellum...
    EITHER there IS evidence, in which case you dont need faith,
    OR
    There is NO evidence, in which case you believe the things you do simply because you choose to.
    which is it ?
    Please do NOT use the phrase 'faith from evidence', or any other such semantic flotsam that gets bandied around in church pamphlets aimed at those people in the congregation able to do a crossword.
    Go...

    mikotondria3 0Permalink
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    • gramme0

      Rand, I'm curious what you mean by "intellectual contructs are a little too high on your list." You know as well as anyone that I ultimately rest my case upon faith, rather than reason...since I believe God to be bigger than me. Or are you merely referring to my penchant for apologetics?

      gramme 0Permalink
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      • I do love a healthy debate...gramme
      • and hopefully people don't feel pushed around by the things I say.gramme
      • there's nothing healthy about this debatemagnificent_ruin
      • why not? Have I not been fair, self-controlled and level-headed?gramme
      • Or is the problem that you simply dislike my opinions?gramme
      • ironically, on some level, we probably agree on a common truth, but you lose me on the scriptural interpretationmagnificent_ruin
      • can he be persuaded?capsize
      • I see.gramme
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    • teleos0

      mikotondria: it sounds like you're trying create a false dichotomy. It is perfectly legitimate to say, "Faith based in fact". There is empirical evidence which supports the authenticity and authority of the Bible manuscripts. This drives me to faith in it's claims. Even though I was not there to observe Christ's resurrection, I have faith that it happened - because there is solid historical evidence. Similarly, I have faith that the Big Bang happened at some point in the past because there is solid evidence, even though I did not observe it. Look into the science of Textual Criticism.

      teleos 0Permalink
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      • Even though I was not there to observe Christ's resurrection...kind of pervy, endman.capsize
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    • janne760

      STOP IT!!!!!!!

      janne76 0Permalink
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      • teleos0

        Another example is that there is evidence that the universe is the product of a purposive and cognizant designer: DNA, Specified Complex Information, consciousness/first-person perspective, cosmologic constants, etc... So I can make a logical and evidence-based inference to a designer, based on the evidence.

        teleos 0Permalink
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      • janne760

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        janne76 0Permalink
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        • blahmatt31
        • Surely it's easier not to read this thread than spend time copying and pasting that ?mikotondria3
        • SURELY!janne76
        • these discussions aren't gonna get the world anywhere. we need more goodness..janne76
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      • mikotondria30

        So how would or might the universe look if there WASN'T a designer, what evidence would you need to have 'faith' that there wasnt a designer in the sense you currently believe there was...

        Also, what on earth does:
        "There is empirical evidence which supports the authenticity and authority of the Bible manuscripts." mean ?
        All the books of Stephen King are authentic, yet the concept of their 'authority' is meaningless..
        There is no 'faith based in fact', there is belief in facts, AND there is faith - ie belief in things that have not been proved to be facts - things that have not fit within our frame of factual knowledge and cannot be explained and proved in terms of things other than themselves.
        I am most interested in the answer to my first point, however....
        You mention such things as DNA, and the cosmological constant....please tell me what evidence you would need to see before you declared that there was no designer. Think hard..
        If the answer is 'there is nothing that would convince me otherwise', then you haven't understood the question.

        mikotondria3 0Permalink
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        • teleos0

          I would have to see a lack of evidence for design. If I weren't a conscious being and able to even ponder the question I am now trying to answer, that would certainly be evidence against design. Of course I would be oblivious to such evidence though, wouldn't i. ;) And if I didn't see information in the form of programming code at the core of all life. I might then conclude that random purposeless processes were sufficient. And if mathematics in it's perfection didn't exist and how it's theorems so perfectly correspond with the way physical laws work. I might then conclude: no design. And if my deepest longings were not for purpose and significance, like every other created being, if I were just a drone seeking to survive, I might see this as evidence against design. And if I didn't see nano-technology and factories at the cellular level, maybe if I just saw blobs of protoplasm and simplicity, I might see that all is based on simple building blocks and there is therefore no design. I suppose those are a few things that would steer me in that direction. Did i misunderstand the question?

          teleos 0Permalink
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          • how do you make the leap from seeing evidence of god in the design of the universe to accepting everything in the bible as truth?magnificent_ruin
          • bible as truth?magnificent_ruin
          • He goes the other way. Believes everything in the bible first and then tries to make it manifest in reality.Mimio
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        • teleos0

          that's a great question, magnificent_ruin. I believe there are two questions every person should ask (depending on the conclusion one arrives at on the first):

          1. Is there evidence of a divine being in the universe?

          2. If so, is there evidence that this being is a personal being who cares about me?

          I think it is logical to pursue the second question if one has determined that the answer to the first is "yes". For me personally, the evidence for the reliability of the Bible and the unique and exclusive claims of Jesus Christ, led me to faith in the God of the Bible and belief that the designer of the universe is the God of the Bible.

          teleos 0Permalink
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          • 1. divine may be mutable
            2. the personal is irrelevant            capsize
          • naked assertions abound today. Support your second claim.teleos
          • bad things happen to the godless, apparentlymagnificent_ruin
          • We know where Mrs Mabel Jones is buried but not Alexander.capsize
          • dust to dust says it plainlycapsize
          • or abyssus abyssum invocat if you prefercapsize
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        • jasontroj0

          We are on page three now.

          Does it bother anyone else that this thread is "The Whacko Compartment" and not "The Whacko Department" ?

          jasontroj 0Permalink
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          • teleos0

            What mimio says of me is partially true. It was only after putting my faith in Jesus Christ that I made an in-depth study of evidence for design in the universe. That's just how things went with me. Though, I did ask hard questions prior to my coming to faith. I knew I would one day delve into the issue in detail, I just didn't know it would be after Christ took hold of me life.

            I know of many who came to Christian faith after looking into the evidence for design.

            teleos 0Permalink
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            • jasontroj0

              Oh and my real contribution:

              jasontroj 0Permalink
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              • amenmatt31
              • more strawmen, naked assertions, and blanket statement nonsense, plz. I didn't get enough here.teleos
              • George really should have stuck to bad comedy. Theology... not his forte.teleos
              • I didn't think you were going to be a fan there Teleos.jasontroj
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            • Mimio0

              Yeah, plus there's the problem that many of things in the Bible you take on faith you can never prove, and you behave as if those things are facts and eventualities.

              Mimio 0Permalink
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              • We all take things on faith which we cannot prove. Especially the committed naturalist.teleos
              • some things are more likely than otherscapsize
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            • jasontroj0

              God Bless America - George Carlin
              I'm going to let him close this one out on my behalf.

              jasontroj 0Permalink
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              • I bet most people here wouldn't link up George Carlin's rants about Environmentalism being a dangerous cult. :)teleos
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            • magnificent_ruin0

              the proof proves itself

              magnificent_ruin 0Permalink
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              • teleos0

                i hope you don't want me to spend time responding to George Carlin.

                teleos 0Permalink
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                • please tell me you don't.teleos
                • please domatt31
                • satirists... no time for.teleos
                • I know, this theory of jesus is serious stuffcapsize
                • seems to be... i mean since brilliant scholars, scientists etc... believe strongly in him.teleos
                • and millions of thinking people all over the globe too.teleos
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              • capsize0

                capsize 0Permalink
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              • janne760

                JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH JESUS KINSKI GOD MOSES HILTON ALLAH BRITNEY OSAMA CHENEY MADONNA MCCAIN PETRUS MOHAMMED JEHOVA COHEN BUSH

                janne76 0Permalink
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                Dogear
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              • jasontroj0

                Teleos, knock yourself out.

                But you should remember, George Carlin was a comedian. He wasn't a minister or politician.

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                Dogear
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                • anairn0

                  I don't believe in God. Prove me wrong.

                  anairn 0Permalink
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                  Dogear
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