Clinton thread
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- TheBlueOne0
Ah. Hillary's a gun nut now. You know, 'cause she's not an "elitist".
"I have hunted. My father taught me how to shoot. I went duck hunting in Arkansas I remember standing there in that cold water it was so cold at first light I was with a bunch of my friends - all men - so the sun is up and the ducks are flying and they were playing a trick on me they were saying were not going to shoot - you shoot they wanted to embarrass me so the pressure was on. And I shot a banded duck they were as surprised as I was."
- "annie oakley" hahahahahaha********
- No wonder she was oblivious to the sound of sniper fire in Bosnia, she has shootin' in her veins!TheBlueOne
- "annie oakley" hahahahahaha
- ********0
" I was with a bunch of my friends - all men - so the sun is up and the ducks are flying."
perfect set-up.
- for Cheney********
- Dear Penthouse...TheBlueOne
- bingo********
- for Cheney
- ********0
last night she was smart enough to insult Gore, who has no yet endorsed anyone
- Gore is code word for elitest and HRC is tryingto do a swiftboat on Obama: making the truth implausible********
- I thought Obama was a little too sly with his hesitant humility as if being articulate would prove he was the harvard lawyer he is.********
- for the jesus audience, as Bush has proved being inarticulate is endearing********
- and says I ain't book smart but by jesus I know what's dumb********
- Obama's closing remarks nailed it: he spoke well and w/o calculation.********
- Gore is code word for elitest and HRC is tryingto do a swiftboat on Obama: making the truth implausible
- monkeyshine0
"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Ok. My eyes nearly bugged out of my head when I read this. Of course Hillary and McCain are going to jump all over this because they see it as a political gift from baby Jesus.
Obama is trying to elevate the conversation and have an honest dialog. Most politicians who come along speaking the truth get smashed (i.e., Howard Dean) because they aren't following the rules of watch your back and say as little as possible. There is a reason this behavior has become the norm; it seems most of middle America does not want to think through complex ideas. They have sold themselves to the efficient sound byte that makes them feel secure...who cares if it's BS.
Being from the South, I know that many people will read Obama's statement as invalidating their life experience, religion, etc...it reads like a judgement against God fearing conservatives. This must have made both Hillary and McCain giddy for a few hours.
I hope he can elevate the dialog. What he is saying is so important, but I wish he had found a different way to make his point. Even though people are jumping in mass to his defense, I think this will resonate and potentially come back to haunt him.
Viva la truth!
- ********0
"John McCain Should Go on Vacation, Hillary Clinton is Doing His Job for Him
Clinton supporters say the darndest things.
Here's Sen. Evan Bayh, commenting on the political firestorm surrounding Barack Obama's remarks -- broken here on HuffPost's OffTheBus -- about economically-depressed small town voters: "The far right wing has a very good track record of using things like this relentlessly against our candidates, whether it's Al Gore or John Kerry. I'm afraid this is the kind of fodder they might use to harm him."
They? They? It's not the far right wing relentlessly using these comments for political gain, Senator. It's your candidate, Hillary Clinton, adopting the frames, lies, stereotypes and destructive clichés long embraced by the likes of Lee Atwater and Karl Rove. She has clearly decided that the road to victory runs through scorched earth.
The question is, if she succeeds, what kind of Party will she be left to lead? She's burning down the village to save it -- or to prove that she would make the best fire chief. But the village won't be saved; only one house will be left standing. A house with room for just two occupants. Hill and Bill.
Clinton's cynical distortion of Obama's remarks is in keeping with her campaign's modus operandi. On the foreign policy front, we've been fed a steady diet of her RNC-patented attacks: No Democrat can be trusted with national security -- except her. Obama hasn't crossed the threshold to be commander-in-chief. Etc.
Now she's turned to the domestic policy section of the RNC playbook, twisting Obama's words in a way that confirms every right-wing demagogic caricature of her own Party.
Yes, as Obama himself admits, he certainly could have chosen his words more artfully. Perhaps he should have borrowed Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign riff about "economically insecure white people who are scared to death." Maybe "scared to death" is less "elitist" than "bitter." But telling the truth, however inartfully, makes you "out of touch"? Give. Me. A. Break.
It has been an article of faith in the Democratic Party over the last twenty years that when small town, working class whites vote for Republicans they're voting against their economic self-interest. And why do they do that? Because every four years the Republican Party comes into those small towns and, to distract folks from the worsening economic situation, trots out a bunch of divisive, hot button social issues: "Let's not talk about why you don't have a job, can't afford health care, or can't send your kids to college; let's talk about gay marriage, school prayer, illegal immigration, and flag burning amendments." And Hillary is following the blueprint.
John McCain may as well take the next six months off, raise some money, maybe take a vacation -- because Hillary Clinton is out there doing his work for him.
This weekend she tried to paint herself as a good old boy, the kind of gal you'd want to have a beer with -- not like that "elitist" Barack Obama: "You know, my dad took me out behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught be how to shoot when I was a little girl." After she said this, she took a shot of whiskey. What's next, ads of Obama windsurfing? At 3 a.m.
But before Hillary Oakley runs out and bags her a few more ducks, Andrew Sullivan points out that of the top ten gun-owning states in the country, Obama has won six -- Hillary has won one. Cling to that.
But, of course, this isn't about guns or religion or fear of foreigners. It's about, as David Axelrod says, the (pardon the expression) bitterness and mistrust that stem from voters being "tired of politicians who come around at election time and express their solicitude as part of a tactic and don't follow through on it."
Jumping on the GOP talking points bandwagon, Clinton's new Mark Penn, Geoff Garin said: "These are the kinds of attitudes that have created a gulf between Democrats and lots of small-town and heartland voters that we've been working very, very hard to bridge." Karl Rove, who has devoted his life to making people believe that such a gulf exists, couldn't have scripted it better himself.
If Clinton's Rovian stoop-to-anything tactics succeed -- not at beating Obama but at making him an easier target for McCain -- the price will be paid by the very small-town Americans she is now pandering to. Americans already banished to economic oblivion by the same cynical tactics she's employing will be rewarded with four more years of downward economic mobility."
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- ********0
That 10-point lead matches Obama's best of the campaign, and even as the controversy has dominated the political airwaves, Obama's support remained strong in tracking interviews conducted on Saturday and Sunday. It is likely Clinton and Republican John McCain will continue to remind voters of the remarks, and the possibility remains that it could affect voters in the coming days, but so far they seem unaffected by the controversy.
Obama has now held a significant lead over Clinton in Democratic voters' nomination preferences for the last eight days, averaging roughly an 8-point lead, compared with the current 10-point spread. During this time, 50% of Democratic voters have supported him on average, matching the latest figure for interviewing conducted April 11-13.
In the general election trial heat match up versus McCain, 46% of registered voters prefer Obama, the same as in the past four days' releases and equal to Obama's high-water mark since Gallup began tracking general election preferences in March. McCain is the choice of 44% of registered voters, which is a percentage point better than in the prior three days' releases.
- voters are not so stupid: they knew Romney was a phony and they know HRC is lost********
- voters are not so stupid: they knew Romney was a phony and they know HRC is lost
- TheBlueOne0
The Republicans are so confused with how to attack Obama they're point man at the NY Times today spent precious column inches trying to call Obama a Communist:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/1…
It;s too funny...it's like they're reaching into the bottom of the bag and throwing shit out there..."Fuck..what's that? 'The COmmunist Labeller 2000'..Yeah pull that out!!" "But...we haven't used that since 1974!! It's been out of warranty since 1989!" "I don't care throw it out there!! For godsakes the muslim label didn't stick..the crazed african american christian church label didn't stick..this HAS to work!! Obama is a commie!!!! A Red!!"
- mg330
I've been reading a ton about this "gaffe" of Obama's using the word "bitter" to describe what is the stone-cold truth on the matter, no matter how you look at it, and all I can say is this:
Clinton and McCain are crazy. Just plain crazy. It amazes me that THEY can call him an elitist. They who have more than $100 million each. It's just crazy to me.
Whether I was for Obama or not, I have enough of a brain to see that he is dead on to say that people without jobs are bitter. Who wouldn't be!? Clinton likes to paint them as happy and unbitter because they cling to the hope that someday, things will be better. They are with the wrong person if that's what they think.
- McCain: Owns Ten Houses.
Clintons: Four.
Obama: One.
Do the math.TheBlueOne
- McCain: Owns Ten Houses.
- TheBlueOne0
Oh, Hillary..about that super-fantastic Bankruptcy Bill you voted for:
"Changes in the federal bankruptcy code in 2005 significantly tightened deadlines for ailing companies to restructure their businesses, offering them less leeway...As a result, she said, “it’s no longer reorganization or even liquidation for these companies. In many cases, it’s evaporation.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/1…
Chain Retailers are going bankrupt owing their suppliers and subcontractors millions..no one is going to see any money and hollowing out malls.
(PS Hillary - that bill helped out your elite buddies on Wall Street, while Obama voted against the bill because it would fuck over all those already bitter people on Main Street...)
- ********0
for the Clintons it's all down to the race card—convincing superdelegates that poor whites will never vote for a black man.
- they embody everything I hate about republicans--deliber... untruth and playing on the basest human impulses********
- that is : deliberate********
- Yale vs Harvard********
- they embody everything I hate about republicans--deliber... untruth and playing on the basest human impulses
- BonSeff0
that annie oakley smack was pretty epic
- ********0
"Why Hillary Clinton's Slash-and-Burn Politics May Hurt Her More Than Obama
The only way for Hillary Clinton to win the Democratic nomination would be a precipitous collapse in Barack Obama's candidacy. Obama's pledged-delegate lead is virtually insurmountable. And Super Delegates seem increasingly inclined to go with the pledged-delegate winner.Rather than respect the outcome of the primaries, the Clintons have decided to do everything they can to make Obama appear to be a risky general election choice to the remaining Super Delegates and the media. But Clinton's negative tactics may actually hurt her candidacy more than they hurt Obama's. There are three reasons:
First, a negative attack has to ring true to the people you are attempting to persuade. Initial polls seem to indicate that most of the people who are receptive to the "Obama-is-a-condescending-'eliti... already supported Hillary in the primary before the attacks began. Clinton's attacks may rally some of her troops, but the argument doesn't seem to be that persuasive to actual undecided voters.
Of course one reason may have to do with the credibility of the messenger. It's tough to attack someone else for "elitism" if you've spent the last 16 years in Washington as First Lady and Senator, and your family brought in $107 million over the last seven years. Assuming an eight-hour workday, that means that Bill and Hillary made as much every two hours as Barack Obama made each full year that he organized out-of-work steelworkers for a coalition of church groups.
Second, the fact of a negative attack itself can backwash on the candidate who makes it. Making negative attacks makes people look mean and unlikable. That is a particular problem when the audience for your attacks includes Democratic primary voters and Super Delegates who really want to win the White House in November.
Clinton's negative attacks on Obama have especially begun to backfire with Super Delegates. I've talked to a number of undecided Super Delegate Members of Congress who are furious at her willingness to attack the candidate who they consider almost certain to be the Democratic nominee.
Most think that Clinton has no more than a 10% chance of winning the nomination, so the odds are great that she is doing nothing now but legitimating the Republican narrative for the general election. The story line that Democrats are "elitists" who look down on middle class people is taken right out of Karl Rove's playbook. It's been used for decades to convince everyday Americans to re-elect Republicans that outsource their jobs, destroy their unions and lower their wages. Many Democratic Super Delegates are apoplectic that Clinton would give credibility to that Republican line of attack on their likely standard-bearer.
We've already seen examples of high profile Super Delegates (like Bill Richardson) who have gone with Obama partially because of Clinton's negativism. We'll likely see many more.
Finally, her attacks have allowed the Obama campaign - and the media - to parody her desperate attempts to appear "working class." When Obama conjured up images of Hillary Clinton sitting in a duck blind it called to mind those unforgettable pictures of Michael Dukakis in a tank.
People want leaders who are self-confident, who are comfortable in their own skin. Candidates need to connect with voters by demonstrating the things that they really share, not pretending to be someone they are not. Hillary Clinton is a long time advocate for gun control - not "Annie Oakley." Shooting back Crown Royal with a beer chaser in a neighborhood tap just isn't Hillary Clinton.
The Clintons may have viewed Obama's "bitterness" remark as the opportunity they'd been looking for to throw a long "Hail Mary" pass in the closing minutes of the primary battle. I'm betting Barack Obama picks it off and runs it back for a touch down."
- ********0
Barack Obama is maintaining his lead over Hillary Clinton among Democrats nationally in the latest Gallup Poll Daily tracking, with a 51% to 40% margin in the April 12-14 average.
The current 11 percentage point lead is the largest for Obama this year, and marks the ninth consecutive day in which Obama has led Clinton by a statistically significant margin. The current Gallup Poll Daily tracking average is based on interviewing conducted Saturday, Sunday and Monday -- after the initial reports of Obama's controversial remarks about "bitter" small-town residents began to be reported in the news media.- but what about PA?********
- all over the place in different polls. I guess Obama will lose by 5-10, as befits our retarded state********
- sorry********
- there is hope--see LA Times/Bloomberg below********
- but what about PA?
- ********0
We are blessed to receive a visit from His Holiness, Pope Benedict, to the United States this week. Not only is he the spiritual leader of America's great Catholic community, he is a strong and effective voice for the cause of peace, freedom, and justice as well as the fight against poverty and disease. His visit to the United States this week should be a very impactful one. I particularly appreciate his going to Ground Zero with some of the families who lost loved ones there. I hope that his message about economic justice and global development will get an appropriate hearing both in our country and in the government. I also applaud Pope Benedict's example and leadership on addressing global warming making the Vatican a model in conservation for all to emulate.
"His apostolic journey is built on the theme of Christian hope, and as he has said, the Gospel message is 'deeply rooted' in our country. We all pray that he will have a safe and successful visit to America, and that everyone will find inspiration in his presence and his words.
Go Hillary! The SS Pope is Love!
- impactful? what kind of word is that?********
- blessed has nothing to do with it********
- my mistake, he wasn't in SS just Hitler Youth.********
- impactful? what kind of word is that?
- ********0
"Clinton losing traction over Obama in Pennsylvania, Indiana
Her formerly double-digit lead is now just a five-point margin in Pennsylvania, survey finds. The reduced margin makes a win for her there less significant. She trails Obama among Hoosiers.
With three crucial Democratic primaries looming, Hillary Rodham Clinton may not be headed toward the blockbuster victories she needs to jump-start her presidential bid -- even in Pennsylvania, the state that was supposed to be her ace in the hole, a new Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll has found.
The survey found the New York senator leading Barack Obama by just 5 percentage points in Pennsylvania, which votes next Tuesday. Such a margin would not give her much of a boost in the battle for the party's nomination.
What is more, the poll found Clinton trails Obama by 5 points in Indiana, another Rust Belt state that should play to her strengths among blue-collar voters.
In North Carolina, an Obama stronghold, he is running 13 points ahead.
The race remains volatile, however, because many likely voters in the Democratic primaries are still undecided -- 12% in Pennsylvania, 19% in Indiana and 17% in North Carolina.
"I could be one who goes into the voting box and makes up my mind at the polls," Gwen Hodavance, a receptionist in Paoli, Pa., said in an interview after participating in the poll. "Obama is the best candidate, the best articulator of the mood for change, but I don't know how he would be for president."
The results underscore the rough road ahead for Clinton in the balloting in Pennsylvania and, on May 6, in Indiana and North Carolina.
With the Illinois senator leading Clinton in the number of convention delegates selected, states won and popular votes cast, she is hoping that a decisive win in Pennsylvania and a victory in Indiana will slow Obama's momentum and bolster her plea for support from the party's superdelegates -- the elected officials, party leaders and activists who likely will decide the nomination.
The poll, conducted under the supervision of Times Poll Director Susan Pinkus, interviewed 623 voters in Pennsylvania, 687 in Indiana and 691 in North Carolina who expected to cast Democratic ballots. The margin of sampling error for the findings in each state is plus or minus 4 percentage points.
The telephone interviews took place Thursday through Monday, meaning the bulk were conducted just as controversy broke out over an Obama remark widely criticized as demeaning rural voters in Pennsylvania. He suggested that for some residents of small towns, their commitment to gun rights, religious faith and hostility toward foreign trade had its roots in their "bitterness" about economic hardships.
No poll question was asked specifically about the comment.
However, voters were asked about another controversy that has dogged the candidate in recent weeks: racially incendiary comments made by the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., the now-retired pastor of Obama's church in Chicago. The furor prodded Obama to deliver a major speech on racial relations in America last month.
In Pennsylvania, the flap seems to have marginally helped Obama more than hurt him: 24% said his handling of the issue made them think more highly of him; 15% said it made them think less highly of him; 58% said it made no difference in their views.
Many Democratic voters, however, see Obama's association with Wright as posing a problem for him in the general election -- 46% in Pennsylvania said they expected it to hamper him in a contest with presumptive Republican nominee John McCain; in Indiana, 47% agreed with that, and in North Carolina, 42%.
"I can't help but thinking the church is a big influence on him," said Roberta Rowe, a retiree in West Middlesex, Pa. "I'd like to feel completely comfortable, but that one issue there is really gnawing at me."
In the follow-up interviews, some voters complained that the criticism of his pastor and the allegations that Obama is elitist are sideshows.
"All this back-and-forth is not really staying on the issues that I want to hear from" the White House candidates, said Joseph Robinson, a disabled worker in Lafayette, Ind. He was unmoved by Clinton's charge that Obama, because of his small-town comment, had shown he was out of touch with many Americans.
"She went to Yale, he went to Harvard," said Robinson, referring to the respective law schools from which they graduated.
The poll found Clinton leading Obama 46% to 41% in Pennsylvania -- a far cry from the double-digit margins she held in earlier polls.
In Indiana, where little polling has occurred, previous surveys gave Clinton the edge. The Times/Bloomberg poll put Obama ahead, 40% to 35%."
- ********0
"The Clinton concern trolls (see Bayh, Evan) are fond of telling us all the things the super delegates should consider when choosing between Clinton and Obama. For example, they're supposed to overturn the will of the primary electorate because Obama's preacher said something craaaazy that one time.
Then they're supposed to overturn the will of the primary electorate because Obama quoted Thomas Frank's What's the Matter With Kansas -- even though the book was the darling of the progressive establishment in 2005 and no one accused Frank of being "elitist" back then, those Clinton concern trolls quoting the book's themes approvingly (see Clinton, Bill).
But that game looks like fun. Here, let me have a turn! Here's some things the supers should consider when making their decisions:
1.) When a Democrat has message discipline with the Republican nominee and the entire VRWC, perhaps there's some disconnect?
Notice how McCain and Fox News didn't pile on Clinton after her Bosnia fantasies. The reason is obvious -- the VRWC doesn't want Obama to win. It's cute that Clinton and her former (and future) tormentors have all found temporary common ground against Obama, but let's not fool ourselves that this is anything more than a situational alliance.
2.) You want numbers that should scare supers in deciding whether to support Obama or Clinton?
Rasmussen (4/15 daily trackinh)
Favorable Unfavorable
McCain 53 45
Clinton 43 54
Obama 49 49CBS/NYT (3/28-4/2)
Favorable Unfavorable
McCain 35 29
Clinton 38 39
Obama 43 24NBC/WSJ (3/28-31)
Positive Negative
McCain 45 25
Clinton 37 48
Obama 49 32Who do you think is more "electable"? The candidate people like, or the candidate people don't like?
3.) Nationally, Obama is increasing his leads over Clinton. Perhaps it's because people really don't like to be told that they're "optimistic" about being screwed over economically.
They're getting a good chance to see who is really out of touch. And hint, it's not the person who didn't bank $109 million the last eight years."
- ********0
"Barack Obama has knocked down one of the three tent poles of Hillary Clinton's campaign for president, surging ahead of her as the candidate Democrats see as most likely to win in November. He's challenging her on leadership as well, leaving only experience as a clear Clinton advantage in the latest ABC News/Washington Post poll.
On the eve of their debate before the Pennsylvania primary next week, Democrats by a 2-1 margin, 62-31 percent, now see Obama as better able to win in November -- a dramatic turn from February, when Clinton held a scant 5-point edge on this measure, and more so from last fall, when she crushed her opponents on electability.
Quick Poll Summary:
Best Chance in November
O 62%
C 31%Clinton Honest & Trustworthy
Yes 39%
No 58%Rift has risen to new high (hight 30's)of supporters on both sides not willing to vote for the other
General Election Preference
O 49%
M 44%C 45%
M 48%Poll finds Obama has better chance to:
Win: 62% to Clinton 31%
Bring Change: 56% to Clinton 35%
is more Honest and Trustworthy: 53% to Clinton 30%
Better understands Problems: 46% to Clinton 41%
and he closed the gap on leadership: 44% to 49%, Clinton led by +24 when last polled now it's +5Choice Among Democrats
O 51%
C 41%These are similar to Gallups Tracking Poll
Which Campaign do you blame for the Mostly Negative Tone (Of 41% Saying Campaign has been mostly Negative)
C 52%
O 14%Who is Better Able to Handle the Economy:
O 48
C 45Asked who would do better at solving Iraq a Dem or Rep
D 52%
R 35%Asked who would do better at solving the economic problems a Dem or Rep
D 55%
R 34%
- TheBlueOne0
The Boss weighs in:
