coalition torture
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- xaoscontrol0
Then I guess it's safe to say he has contradicted himself?
- Mimio0
No, it isn't safe to say because he's been very outspoken about his opposition to the war since before it was started.
- xaoscontrol0
Maybe he was saying something that he thought others wanted to hear.....it was Fox News...and I'll correct myself...he said that the European Foreign Ministers were not exluding USING FORCE , they just didn't want to do it in March of 2003...they wanted more time to inspect.......which I won't even get into
- xaoscontrol0
btw mimio.....I read post of yours from earlier and I'll agree that the US isn't any safer because of Gulf War 2.0...but I'll also say that nobody can say what things would be like had the US not gone in...
Hell, I'm no warmonger...I don't like the idea of a state of war any more than the next guy...as I said before, my dad went Europe in 1944 and I'm very proud the be the son a US Vet.....and getting back to my initial statement...I don't believe that the moronic actions of a few is a representation of the many. Maybe I'm a pollyanna....rose colored glasses and all...but it's what I believe.
I hope all 17 are made examples off. I also hope that the actions of those opens up investigations on the less known events of similar nature....and then THOSE people need to be be punished.
- virtu0
i apologize for missing all of this action here, i had to go grab some lunch.
well, i respect you guys for being respectful. I really try and keep things respectful and i appreciate those who are doing the same.
i would care to address the idea of propaghand though. you are saying that you feel sorry for me buying into the propaghanda. So, your making it sound like what you believe is the absolute truth of the situation, and anything that contradicts what you think is either propaghanda or ignorance. Now what kind of sense does that make? first of all, you have no idea what my sources are, and second of all, the points i am making are based entirely on fact. Im not sewing the seed of propaghanda anywhere. Anything i am saying here is based entirely on my level headed assesment of the situation. I am not someone who buys into everything someone tells me. I use my mind to come to conclusions. I no fish, no hook line and sinker for me.
and one thing i want to add, i cant remember who brought it up, but the age thing. man, that is some stupid shit. you act like im some 15 year old kid who has no mind of his own. dont try and use my age as some sort of a talking point. Im a well informed individual regardless of age.
and the negroponte thing too, yes i am down with negroponte being the embassador to iraq. im just waiting for the attacks on this one.
- mrdobolina0
Virtu, were you down with the Iran Contra affair?
- virtu0
iran contra was a mess. i do believe that it was a sticky situation, that i seriously doubt we will ever understand totally. It was all based on the information that regan and his advisors were privey to. But, as i see it...it was pretty shady.
- Mimio0
Virtu,
Today we have a very similar machiavelian administration with many consistencies and parallels.
- virtu0
i assume your talking about the bush administration? i would argue that bush isnt as right wing as good ole mach, but nice try.
i would however equate people like ruth ginsberg with karl marx. I think that would be a far better comparison.
- Mimio0
I was referring to the " I don't recall" method of accountability of the Reagan administration. As well as the "by force if necessary" style of foriegn policy. These folks pursue their goals and world vision with total disregard for anyting in their path. I'm contrasting the current adminstration with it's foundations in the Reagan administration.
- virtu0
ahhhh, i see now. well, allow me to retort...
i would first argue that the current administration did not adopt any such "i dont recall" method. Well, lets say they havent adopted it anymore than any other administration of late.
and the total disregard thing is ridiculous. If this were the case, fallujah would be a field of rocks and dead bodies by now. Disregard would entail just using force as the first option and just killing everything in site. I know someone is going to say that that is what they are doing, but i warn you to choose your words wisely, cause i will hop right on any comment like that.But, if your going to alude to machiavelli, then you shouldnt do it in relation to regan and bush. Mach was a crazy mofo, and saying bush and regan follow his ideas is doing a disservice to the insanity to mach.
- Mimio0
Machiavelli wasn't insane at all he was a political pundant who was basically forced out by the cosanostra. So he had intimate knowledge of such tactics. I do recall Rumsfeld playing the "I never said 'IMMINENT THREAT'" to the press, even though there are various sound bites of him saying exactly that. Also, In my view rushing to war without ANY concrete proof is suspicious to say the least.
- mrdobolina0
Virtu, Negroponte was at the center of the Iran Contra Affair. Training death squads and the whole nine yards.
- mrdobolina0
as soon as he was named the ambassador to iraq, honduras pulled the fuck out of the 'coalition of the willing', that's very indicative if you ask me.
- virtu0
if i recall correctly, the iran contra was mostly about weapons sales to iran. the money was then sent to aid efforts in honduras. also, negroponte was not mentioned in reports i have read. He was simply the guy who was recieving money from the incident. He was indirectly associated at best.
and mimio, youve been keeping up with your moveon.org information i see. but, as i said before, this current administration isnt any more "dont recall" than any other recent administration. ie, i did not have sex with that woman, i did not inhale. hehe.
- virtu0
i dont negate the fact that negroponte was associated with some stuff in honduras, but as with the iran contra, it is a complicated situation that had alot to do with the direct information negroponte was recieving. Its all sticky and our assessment of the situation cant be entirely solid without all the information...which to my knowledge the documents from that whole honduras thing havent been released yet.
- Soler0
That would be a good point virtu, except clinton didn't kill Lewinsky.
Also, Negroponte is a huge human rights abuser: check it
- mrdobolina0
because negroponte, fawn hall and oliver north shredded them.
- Soler0
in case it's too long for you, here's an interesting excerpt:
[...On Negroponte's watch, diplomats quipped that the embassy's annual human rights reports made Honduras sound more like Norway than Argentina. Former official Rick Chidester, who served under Negroponte, says he was ordered to remove all mention of torture and executions from the draft of his 1982 report on the human rights situation in Honduras. In a 1982 letter to The Economist, Negroponte wrote that it was "simply untrue to state that death squads have made their appearance in Honduras."]
- mrdobolina0
a rumor is that they used to have 'shredding parties', thats just a rumor though. btw fawn hall was kinda hot in an 80's style way. ;)