the pricing wormhole < - -
- Started
- Last post
- 32 Responses
- BonSeff
interesting article. but it seems like it doesnt touch on the real issue. the issue of what constitutes a designer?
take the opening sentence:
"As the market of available designers continues to inflate, many desperate professionals begin to work for pennies on the dollar. They're shorting themselves, and they're eroding the industry."comparing our profession to the likes of accoutants and lawyers is just over the top.
accountants must become cpa's
laywers need to pass the bar.all an "available designer" needs is a bootleg of photoshop, dreamweaver and a little sack to convince a client that they can get the same results as you or me, at a much lower rate. shit most available designers dont want to buy a decent font, but rather ask for it for free in the pv-an
just look at this board. there are a lot of good designers that can create a super great flash site but decide to take on print jobs and dont understand what the fuck a bleed is, setting up a three color job etc.
our indusrty is a huge mess. and i agree that companies like elance and the like (all of which are online) are a huge detriment to working design professionals, it doesnt change the fact that designers do not need to pass any sort of standard creative test to be licensed to work as a designer.
and how the hell do you say no to a idiot client that wants to save a buck? shit we need to make money and we are competing with a completely open market. being a member of aiga means dick
i know this a rant all over the place. just wanted to comment on an article that brought up a problem and offered nothing. cept charge like a professional, even though there is no professional standard in our industy to compare to the ones the author suggested.
- chug0
The question is often more important than the answer
What can YOU do to add more structure to our industry?
Since there's not a precedent for pricing, the more we charge as individuals the more the client expects to get charged and the more we, as designers, benefit.
The hacks can always be seperated from the professionals.
Being a new industry, it's a natural evolution process that we are going through. There were 200 car companies in the beginning, and I'm sure they complained about undercutting prices. Things work themselves out (ooooo, Tao). From chaos comes structure.
Aaaaannndddd i'm spent.
Cheers
- chug0
Buckminster Fuller cites examples in Critical Path of how paying the employees more makes the company profit.
Go figure.
(Honestly, I could go on and on but i can't judge my own coherency and i don't want to annoy people)
Cheers
- Cyberjunkie0
if u are honest in your work... clients know how much it is worth...
but yo! no one is HAPPY to produce cash on command... chances are if the client undermines the quality of their advertising for money they arent worth yer time...
And hey! if they get a better deal somewhere else for thinner bills... rethink yer price list buster!
- BonSeff0
capitolists markets will dilute
thats the game. and i can appreciate designers wanting to build a portfolio. but in the old days, the only way to do that was to go inhouse for a company or agency. now freelance designers are calling themselves firms.like i said, this industry is a mess
- Niceguy990
someone posted a topic on what magazine people are reading, (I put XBox) but actually today I was also reading the PRINT magazine that's out right now, it has a great article that is parallel to that pricing wormhole article. it offers interviews with 6 design professionals and steps to adapt to this changing design industry, like someone said, this mess. It also gives you advice on how to stand up and place yourself as the economy rebounds with globalization etc.
- BonSeff0
the biggest variable isnt what we are prepared to charge, more like what is the client prepared to spend.
thats the tricky grey area and where negotiation skills matter. educating the client is always a good idea, but many clients just want it done and do not understand the process. and i would argue that most designers would rather not sell the reasons for the process.
thats why we have art degrees instead of marketing. ugggh!
most firm have sales people that get and negotiate the accounts and pass the work to designers. and there in lies the reason for higher pricing. OVERHEAD
firms are turm key. they deal with the vendors and deal with all the headaches and solve the problems. something an inexperienced, independant designer is ill prepared to handle.
and those reasons are exactly why they should charge more.these examples are for companies that care to market.
those that go directly to elance get exactly what they deserve
- BonSeff0
i forgot to mention i'm planning a retreat in montana fir designers to finalize pricing and overthrow the goverment. a continental breakfast will be provided
thanks
- mitsu0
you're only worth what you think you're worth.
and you my friend, can't afford me.
- Jade0
The question is what do you offer society, and how do you feel about increasing consumption and increasing the gap between the rich and poor...
I thought design was about acessability and communication?
I am yet to see much in the way of communicating for a minority...
- JamesEngage0
We've had clients... that knock you down to nothing, and expect more than your ratecard paying clients...
You end up not repsecting them, and deffo not working with them again... it's their loss, as when they treat people like that they never get a relationship together, and have to start afresh each time.
We had one client that we pulled out of the job literally because they were treating us like shit, and it really wasn't worth the hassle.
- unknown0
It takes a lot of guts to dump a client. But cool - if nobody never calls them on their bullshit, they'll keep treating designers that way.
- ********0
I am speaking as a student and freelancer.
I think the most important part, as a student and beginning freelancer, is to do lots of research on how others are billing the clients and then throwing in the fact that you are still a student and can't charge as much as professionnals do. Its just a matter of research and if you know you worked hard enough and put enough soul in your project to bill in an appropriated way.
- brundlefly0
I will always stand by my rate.
I have been beaten by more eager younger design firms many a time, lots of the time the client returns unhappy and I get the job anyways, I think designers have to find the level of comfortability in their rates to be able to wait out the goon squads. Things will most always turn around for the best....
- jevad0
imho - you get what you pay for - and if you don't pay me what my services are worth and want to go with some shmuck who's gonna undercut me just to get the work - then go. I don't do bullshit and I don't deal with clients who are out for the best deal. I used to, but then I got married and now time is precious to me.
- BonSeff0
bump for sweetasbro
linking threads is hard
- sweetasbro0
Thanks BonSeff, your opener was very insightful and you're right that the problem is not the price (is right or not), but what percentage these "professionals" are compare to the self-taught types. A real mess!!
If we all step out of our "designer" shoes for a moment, and look around. Then many of us may realise what he or she is REALLY worth and I have to say, most are not worth anything... and if anyone think a logo is providing real service to the society by any means (and charge to whatever price he/she thinks fit), he or she needs to try some real work, living on design is tough, but so are many others - whom do a lot more in providing a meaningful service than just wank.
Sorry, but self-worth is just a delusive term that has no meaning... until we have some formal governing body that sets the rules (and get rid of the bad apples) then things will get a lot worse.
- sweetasbro0
"we live in a society where this rule just doesn't apply. Basketball players, Baseball players, Film stars, Gucci designers, Nike..etc. None of which provides a "real service" to society. "
Most of the "titles" you mentioned is not their self-worth, but what values / talent others see in these people - big difference than say "I think I should be a Star because after all I'm a "designer" so I should be able to earn just like these people" - see what I mean? It is the "Stardom" attitude that is creating the mess we are in today.
- BonSeff0
jason, you gotta know i respect your opinion, but..
telling every designer to charge more (like the artical says) is a path that leads strait to chaos.a designers career is a set of accomplishments that determines worth.
a long time established designer with proven results can afford to, and would be expected to charge accordingly
also, i noted your remarks about ideas, and how valuable they are.
but..
there is no standard of pricing a creative process.ick.. serioulsy, i cant argue this problem. i used to be good in debate. this one is a wicked pisser.
the best arguement i can provide is that,
an artical that you posted telling all designers in our open market to think like lawyers and charge like accountants, is a train wreck.
- Jade0
For me it is that the creative leg is a highway for perpetuating the rules that dont exsist in the real world... they are created by the companies you work for. This is what i feel needs to be questioned... What is real and what is not... we can alter and mold a society as we wish...
Selfworth is expressed not by you, but by the companies you work for... society tells you what you are worth...
I believe you are no better or worse than the person you stand next too.
thats my thoughts... if it makes sense...
- dconstrukt0
yeah elance sucks.
and the designers on there for the most part suck more.
tons of indian companies.
i searched 20 pages of portfolios and found only THREE designers capable of doing the work i'd like....
I'm thinking about outsourcing the work and acting as a project manager.....
the problem is that we as an industry have NO structure.
lawyers have to go to school and take the bar....doctors...something similar.....etc.
anyone can call themselves a designer...and it hurts us as an industry.....
they undercut our prices and then we cant get the work, plus when we do, the client wonders and questions why they're paying so much more....they think we're ripping them off.....
there needs to be some standardization within our industry....some type of certification or whatnot to get rid of the shit.
D