Tables or DIVs?
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- sparker0
if cingular.com crashes your browser, then it's your configuration and system, not the site. it works fine for me on all systems - XP/IE6, XP/Mozilla, Linux/Mozilla, Galeon and Konqueror.
backwards compatiblity is an ok idea in theory, but in most cases it is more cost intensive than dealing with current, standard implementation.
i agree with vena's approach. it is a viable solution. architects and contractors have been doing things like that for years. if a client wants something that is older, harder to construct and more labor intensive then the client gets charged more.
asking a client to download and install the latest browser version is a lot easier than you spending an extra day making a site work, in whole, across deprecated technology.
the problem with web design is no standards and droves of "designers" who continue to do things the wrong way. once designers except the correct way to work and swallow their ego and childish pride and commit to standards, then browsers will fall in line and so will clients.
a lot of people are, in fact. web services depends on standards and compliance across multiple systems and configurations...the only way to acheive this level of development is through standard, valid and well-formed markup, lightweight css layouts and standardized scripting (ie, ecmascript).
- lowimpakt0
can you explain how its my system configuration that caused the site to plop please?
i did say it was xp/ie6. would you like me to test it on my mac aswell.
"backwards compatiblity is an ok idea in theory, but in most cases it is more cost intensive than dealing with current, standard implementation."
sounds like a cop out to me..you dont design sites just for a client. what about all their customers. it essentially a poor design if it doesnt fufill its prescribed function for all users.
what would you say if i designed a car and nobody over 5.5ft could fit in the car because the client was only 5.5 ft tall.
- vena0
if the client agrees to 5.0+ compatability, lowimpakt, then comes back for further compatability, that's a renegotiation of the contract. in which case, of course you charge them again.
or is being a designer charity work for you?
- vena0
and no, it's not my fault if the client doesn't read the contract.
- sparker0
irrelevant analogy. you are trying to compare changing a "standard" way of doing something with altering those standards to your design.
a car is built in a standardized way. there are rules and engineering obligations that designers must adhere to, there for, it would compare closer to implementing standards in web design than against it.
but you are correct in the point about designing for a clients clients...but again...once you make the transition into standards, then all sites will work seamlessly with the technology.
web standards is more than designing some cheesy web site. it deals with alternative display methods...that is why it's called a "standard." the underlying technology is to allow properlly designed sites to work with things like WAP, Firmware/Hardware/Software, etc...
once your clients understand, they're clients will understand. we do it all the time with minimal headache.
- Blofeldt0
oo oo, er a bit of both. As for compatibility, i think the sites functionaliy should be backwardly compatible, especially if it's ecommerce, where as I can live with a it of dodgy layout in NN4.
Yeah, if your contract stimpulates 5.0+ then that's cool, they have to be sure about what they're getting.
- Blofeldt0
I expect we will have full implemented accessibility and readability standards soon.
- lowimpakt0
sparker you said it when you said about the client understanding. as long as you educate your client about your intents and the breath of their site fine but saying 'tough' when they realise their site doesnt work for half their clients is cheeky in the extreme.
if thats the way you do business you are not a designer you are a shit.
the analogy isnt irrelevant because im not talking about technology im taqlking about design practice.
- lowimpakt0
i still want an explanation of how its my 'system configuration' that caused that site to fail. im genuinely interested.
- vena0
well, while the cingular site is not standards compliant ( http://validator.w3.org/check?ur… ), there really isn't much to the site that should cause your browser to *crash* per say... although it would be pretty awesome if browsers crashed when encountering a site that isn't standards compliant :)
- sparker0
a better question, since it works fine on 4 machines I own all with different set ups (including bsd and a dual boot workstation) is how it *does* crash on your system?
that would be nice, mr. vena.
:)
- vena0
i can't imagine. i mean, there's a lot of places i would have used php instead of javascript and let the server do what you've asked the client to, but i can't even begin to fathom what on that site would crash a browser...
unless the client's box has a problem with Math.random()... that's the only thing i can think of.
- sparker0
could be a memory leak...bad javascript causing the windows environment to freak...
depends on if he's running real java/javascript or the standard windows version.
- vena0
javascript is interpreted at the browser, so it would have to be a flaw in the browser. given that data decays, his specific copy of the browser on his specific system may have a corrupt library or two? who knows. i call quirk. :)
(for those who are confused at this point: when you "call quirk" on a single-user-specific problem, you're basically writing them off. a regrettable, but sometimes necessary decision.)
- sparker0
besides that, it would be found across the boad...so my system would die too.
oh well.
poop.
- vena0
well don't you call quirk just yet - how long has the site been up? if it's been over a week and you haven't gotten word of crashing from anyone else, then call quirk :)
- lowimpakt0
thats why im interested - its a weird one.
seems fine in netscape, firebird. the menu aint loading on opera but hey.
- lowimpakt0
my problem was with the standards of design practice. ah well....
- vena0
well it's a tough ethical call for web designers that print designers don't have to face as much - do you advance your medium and adhere to the standards it's trying to craft to create a better experience for everyone (which results in time *someone* has to pay for), or do you stick to the old ways and keep using tables for layout and depreciated technology?
- lowimpakt0
dont want to get tied down on this but again my problem was with the attitude to design practice. its not really that tough a question.
i simply think keeping your clients blind to problems that you are aware of and them claim that they are the pain in the ass when they ask why their site wont work on their grannys computer is shitty and arrogant.
they are basic facts and five minutes of explanation to a client isnt too much now is it.