Tables or DIVs?
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- vena0
well it's a tough ethical call for web designers that print designers don't have to face as much - do you advance your medium and adhere to the standards it's trying to craft to create a better experience for everyone (which results in time *someone* has to pay for), or do you stick to the old ways and keep using tables for layout and depreciated technology?
- preston0
Thanks sparker,
I just telepathically sent you a gob of good vibes
- r_gaberz0
.divs
- lowimpakt0
dont want to get tied down on this but again my problem was with the attitude to design practice. its not really that tough a question.
i simply think keeping your clients blind to problems that you are aware of and them claim that they are the pain in the ass when they ask why their site wont work on their grannys computer is shitty and arrogant.
they are basic facts and five minutes of explanation to a client isnt too much now is it.
- vena0
i think you're making assumptions. i didn't say i don't explain what 5.0+ means, nor did i say i don't show them a variety of statistics showing who's excluded by such an action (i often even try to get other companies in their market to cough up their stats).
it's just that it doesn't matter. when they come back and say "it doesn't work on so-and-so's computer," and you say, "we had this agreement," to which they reply, "i don't care, it should work," they're a pain in the ass.
- lowimpakt0
is it not lazy to not have full browser compatibility on corporate sites. if your only discussing the levels of browser compatibility with the client when they come back crying you shouldnt be charging more. you inconvenienced them - a bit like those cowboy builders.
by the way http://www.cingular.com freezes my browser XP IE.6 and that a standard browser init.
- chl0
The best book I've been through regarding this is "Eric Meyer on CSS". Basically, he just takes a bunch of table based sites and re-implements the UI using good CSS.
It is true that there are some things that will take you longer to do using CSS than you could do with tables, in particular the first time you do them. This is because you already know how tables work, and you probably don't know all the CSS techniques. If you spend the time to learn the CSS techniques though, you will probably soon start to see that it is a better way to go if you have the option. It's just a lot more flexible.
Good luck.
- lowimpakt0
this is why i didnt want to get bogged down on this because i thought it might be a misread of your thread. if we want to do something with a site that we know isnt widely accessible we let the client know clearly (especially on intranets and the like).
but it the site doesnt require anything special code-wise we dont put it in. because there are too many situations like the www.cingular.com. the site is pretty basic so shouldnt cause any problems which it clearly does.
- vena0
ok, well a few questions/comments...
first, why ask for a conversation if you don't want it?
second, there should be no compatability problems on an intranet since they're controlled environments. that's kinda par for the course. there's situations with very small company intranets where the employees' pcs are not controlled, but in that case you do what you do for the web, shoot for the highest majority and work down from there as the client and budget allow.
third, ignoring compatability with 5 year old browsers, the cingular problem seems entirely unique to your pc.
- mrdobolina0
whatever works for you. At work, they still want things to be backwards compatible to old versions of netscape to a degree, so I cant use iframes on work-related projects. I use css for simple text and link manipulation, but that is about it.
- lowimpakt0
i wanted to end the conv. because we are talking about different things ultimately.
I said we can push things and experiment a bit more with intranet because its a controlled environment. but pushing unneccessary trials onto websites is a bit over-eager.
Back to cingular - i get a different range of bugs with Opera than with IE and i just reckon if you designed the site (you didnt did you) its your responibility to know why its screwey and how to fix it. I dont know any client that would be happy telling puzzled customers that they need pull their heads out of their ass and update their browsers etc. because we wanted to try some new code etc.
- vena0
oh well opera's a totally different animal :) i didn't design the site, and like i said it's nowhere near standards compliant (which opera is near 100%). i was referring to your crash.
perhaps i've just been fortunate enough to have clients that understand me when i tell them how their site won't and can't be able to please all of the people on the internet and continue to be the design they want.
- Nairn0
Really, just fuck it. I'd been having the same thoughts, then just started plastering DIVs throughout all my corporate work at the start of the year. No-one noticed, no-one complained, and my job was made easier.
That said, I still rely on table when I simply can't be bothered to work out the differences..
- monNom0
the page has rendering issues for me... OS 9/ IE 5.0
some of the images get tiled when scrolling....
- lowimpakt0
but you explain the pifalls to your client and obviously design impressive sites. maybe im old-skool but i think good design practice is very important.
- preston0
tables for layout with the odd DIV used for shimming content more precisely.
Are there any good tutorials for using DIV for layouts? What about a strut explanation?
- ape0
calendars. How can you use divs?
- knusperpixel0
Sorry?
- sparker0
tables are for tabular data...not layout.
divs, spans and css for layout.
http://www.thenoodleincident.com…
there are more than enough tutorials and examples on well formed markup and css layouts.
it's the proper way to build sites, period.
- unformatted0
both.
divs for layout.
tables for data.css rules.