Web Standards
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- jevad
Ok yes - this has been done to death on here - but today I was talking to teh department head about web stadards (xhtml/cc etc), and how we should start complying.
So me and my big mouth have to get up on Monday infront of the CD, MD, DH and digital team and tell them why it would be a good idea, and what we standards are/why the client should care.
I don't even know WHERE to start!! A lot of our clients are top-end tech companies: IBM, Msoft, hp, cisco, etc...
I know there are a lot of people who are verhmently standards-orientated on here (sp!) so I would love to hear your thoughts on this...
- jevad0
awwwww!
come on now people - don't fail me now!
: )
- luke0
i´m soo tired right now. but i back you up in the emergency case!
- chilaquil0
be careful what you wish for 'cause it may come true...
- ********0
- sp0
The selling point for standards is that in the end, content and design will be more accessible and much more mature as an environment than it is now.
It is also important to stress that, yes some browsers don't adhere to the recomendations and there will be grumbling from that guy who refuses to upgrade (for what ever stupid reason).
Be honest, telling your managment what standards does and what it doesn't saves you the headache of covering your ass later...and, it educates them on just what is wrong with the web as most people see it.
Standards is more than just using CSS and XHTML, it is an entire ethos of design and development. Standards is clean code. It is concise and consistent design techniques...it is understanding and clearity for developers and web designers.
Theory and concept play a large role in good Information Architecture, data modeling and content management...and those elements (which are key to good communication in web design) need some degree of uniformity.
And, making a clear distinction between poorly designed and ugly usability and good, well formatted and enriched usability is also important.
Don't let the term usability scare you or anyone away from it's needed role in design. Usability doesn't have to look like a Nielsen website...it can be beautiful.
I dunno, I'm tired....and I've been working a lot lately...so I don't have much to really say.
I will recommend you go and try to muddle through a few resources before going into the meeting...
I would say, hit Alist Apart, Web Standards, The W3 site and maybe a little Boxes and Arrows (for theory of IA)...and, maybe even read a few alert boxes for an extreme view...
:)
- ********0
your right you shouldn't of opened your mouth, it's not worth all that shit, I had to do it with MS as well working for one of their clients, it's a major pain in the ass.
- sp0
It's only a pain if you let it be.
- ********0
In terms of selling | commercial gain
XHTML IS THE WAY
More and more hardware/software systems will be able to access the web...and no matter how big or small___XHTML is the stuff they will swallow!
it's late and I go hit the pillows now___might hook you up with some more info tomorrow.
- kpl0
If you don't code to standards now, you will in the future. and doing so will end up costing more. I think I picked that up in the NYPL styleguide.
Also, if you can, add stark morality into the picture. ie, tables are evil, xhtml/css are good. poor 4cy sold out and abandoned standards, so he's going to hell.
- dsmith70
I guess I just haven't taken the time to look at the standards such as XHTML. I just don't see the relative need to use it in the daily "brochureware-sites" I am making for work. Am I wrong to think that XML and XHTML are more for dynamic generation and database communication in regards to constantly updated content such as newspapers or other online media?
- enobrev0
it also makes a site more long term, which is a good investment. If a browser doesn't work along the standards guideline, it's because it's a bug in the browser.
This means that it will be fixed in a future version of the browser, especially now that they are awakening to standards in general.
Long term investment is usually a good selling point with a serious client. and it means little to a bad client, but what does anything mean to them anyways?!
- PeterNorf0
Get knee deep into it now or you will kick your ass in the future.
I think it is a good idea to conform to the standards and future standards now because for 1 thing I know, it will help you run a more efficient website. And if you build lots of sites and keep all these sites on your own servers more effficient sites means a more efficient server. I have went through recently and converted all my old HTML & ASP Sites form using embedded fonts to style sheets and I have even started to convert a few over to XHTML. It just makes sense.
If I had to give a speach on why to start learning and converting now. I would say "Hey, Why not?" You know. You have to sometime, why not get a head start. Or a late start as it could be now.
- jevad0
cheers all - some nice commentary there!
- sp0
I never had understood the dislike of not only learning the correct way to do things, but evolving as a developer and designer?
Web standards are going to happen. They are starting right now. New technologies demand understanding of valid, well-formed, well written code.
I don't know why people are so afraid of changing...of learning something knew?
Doesn't make much sense to me.
Explain to me why someone shouldn't learn the right way to develop sites? Explain why standards are bad....without using the tired excuse that it doesn't work in all browsers.
It is a non-issue, since new browsers are adapting standards compliance, and with more similarity now than before.
With more and more clients wanting meaningfull services instead of frivolous web sites, technologies like XML, XHTML, CSS, DOM, unified Javascript, PHP, etc will become standardized and plat-form independent.
So, why must designers and developers still cling to old, poor markup.
And, honestly, if this was a high-level coding (Pascal, C, Java) environment or any design profession like Architecture, Engineering or Industrial....you'd be laughed out for not learning and using industry standards.
In order for the web to mature, limitations and standards need to be imposed. And, a common misconception is that this will limit creativity...but it doesn't. In fact, if will foster a more creative environment...standards don't stop you from designing highly creative and artistic products, it just makes them more uniform on a machine level.
- Blofeldt0
Listen to that sp chap I reckon. Seems to know his/her eggs.
But if you're dealing with such big clients, then mention some o'this
- mitsu0
i'm all for standards, but in my experience, they are hard to follow for some pm's because it involves constantly bringing new hires up to speed and making sure their coding standards match that of your teams. also, commenting code and formatting code to a standard, and using a standard file and variable naming conventions becomes very daunting and can cut significantly into development time... this has just been my experience...
yet, i still believe standards are good as they can make code modifications much easier since there will be no conflicts in style or practice.
- sp0
But, there are tools (GPL/OSS/Free infact) that allow for difference checking, version control, CVS repositories, etc....
A developers best, best friend.
:)
- ********0
Hahaha, kpl..
I have not sold my soul yet__!
anyway, XHTML is NOT nescessarily for dynamic/db sites only, there are just some small differences in notation which are very important tho, since it is that which will make it accessible for many devices etc.
Also, you can make up different style sheets, they relate to the device that will read the page, you can make a black/white style sheet for print-related matter (if one chooses to print the page one can avoid the colours and you might even choose a b/w header (define image(header) in div as background), but you can take it even a step further and choose a braille related style sheet.....these will all generate the same content but efficient for the device that will handle it.
- djenders0
"Explain to me why someone shouldn't learn the right way to develop sites? Explain why standards are bad....without using the tired excuse that it doesn't work in all browsers. "
Well I don't see why people can't learn about standards or push for it but reality dictates what can actually happen. If you have an array of sites that get 30 million page views a month and 10% of your users are still using Netscape 4.7 you are going to have tons of problems. These people demand to see their daily news and they don't want to upgrade. Or worse yet they can't!
Yep can't! I found 3 things that inhibit the push for CSS, XML, and DOM driven layouts & content.
1. People. Yep - they are just used to surfing in their old browser. It's familiar to them and they don't want to change.
2. Firewalls. Some businesses do not allow users to upgrade their software. So knowing your client and users are important. Standards are great but if they can't use them and it impedes their path to useful information then they are not helping anyone!
3. Unfortunately we still live in a time where anyone can code HTML. So you may have a staff or boss that feels the need to make changes to content. (Think of an Editor at a newspaper). They want ful control. But they don't understand XSL or that crazy CSS layout. What happened to good ole tables????
I still think we should all be on the standards bandwagon, but until we can actually overcome legacy browsers it just won't be a reality.
I think we need a stepping stone. That would be XHTML and the seperation of content and design. If you can't sell standards now then at least get your content into a database so you can wrap any design around it in the future. And start preaching XHTML to your staffs so they understand coding practices now and can make the transition later.
Just some thoughts...
Dennis.