Jesus everywhere
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- WrappedInBooks0
Is this only in the US?
- probably7point34
- nope, it's just amongst the ignorant sheep of the worldmonospaced
- monospaced0
I believe seeing blurry images of bearded men and knocked up whores (Mary) on inanimate, insignificant objects is a practice that goes back before the founding of the US. I hear it's quite popular in Europe.
- Scotch_Roman0
Sure there are plenty of ignorant, foolish Christians, but you could say the same about atheists or Hindus as well. Disagree with them if you will, but having faith in something does not make one stupid, ignorant, or a sheep of any stripe. Some of the most brilliant minds I've ever met and ever heard of are/were unabashed Christians.
- what kind of freaky striped sheep have you been hanging out with?7point34
- how exactly, can you see someone you don't believe in in something inanimateversion3
- Did I say I believe in any of these post-Christ "sightings?" Hell no.Scotch_Roman
- This whole shroud of Turin, visions of Mary, crying statue malarky doesn't hold water with me.Scotch_Roman
- hmm, haven't heard the word 'unabashed' for a while.PlanktonBro
- All religions have their good points if they're based on love.PlanktonBro
- monospaced0
Nobody called Christians foolish, stupid, ignorant or sheep in this thread. Nobody said there weren't stupid non-Christians either. But the whole thing is pretty ridiculous from a realist's point of view.
- I consider myself to be a realist, pretty cynical too. I didn't come to Christ through my own powers of logic, though.Scotch_Roman
- It was entirely a work of the Holy Spirit. You can't knock it until it comes to you :)Scotch_Roman
- Yes I can.monospaced
- Well, of course you have freedom of speech, but until that time are speaking from a position of ignorance.Scotch_Roman
- Not a matter of intellect. It has everything to do with God's power, and nothing to do with us.Scotch_Roman
- You're saying I'm ignorant for not believing in something that doesn't exist!? Scotch_Roman, you are ignorant.monospaced
- sheepdip makes better sheepnilsnihil
- mono, did you not even read what I said? I said it's not a matter of intellect, rather a matter of revelation.Scotch_Roman
- We're all ignorant until convinced by the Holy Spirit.Scotch_Roman
- So in that sense yes, you are ignorant of the truth, but no less than I used to be, and not for lack of brains.Scotch_Roman
- monospaced0
I can't believe any dogma that pins me as a sinner from the day I was born. I won't spend the rest of my life begging for forgiveness that I'm enjoying my short time alive.
- "begging for forgiveness" where did you get that idea from? Not Christianity.designbot
- totally!
Confession!? Hail-marys and all that!? Praying!? All forms of begging.monospaced - Those fuckers invented that shit.monospaced
- those are all exclusive to the Catholic faith, except for praying for forgiveness.designbot
- If you offended a close friend/wife/ family member would you ask for forgiveness?designbot
- Sure, but not to make sure I wasn't going to a fictional hot place for fucking eternity!monospaced
- Not to appease the bearded man in the clouds! Forgiveness from the person is, and always should be, enough.monospaced
- my point was if you are willing to ask for forgiveness of men (and women) then how much more should you ask God for forgiveness.designbot
- forgiveness.designbot
- Nope, forgiveness must come from someone who hasn't sinned. That's the only person with the power to forgive.Scotch_Roman
- Men and women are real. God and Jesus are not. HUGE FUCKING DIFFERENCE!monospaced
- Once again, you're implying sin, which is a Catholic/Christian invention.monospaced
- by the limits you put on the definition of "real"...there would be no way to prove that forgiveness itself is even real.designbot
- When a person says "you are forgiven" you can believe them. When you hear voices, it's probably not.monospaced
- That's reality for you.monospaced
- I don't hear voices. Neither do most other Christians. You're being purposefully daft.Scotch_Roman
- monospaced0
Nobody should need a religion to tell them how to lead a good life.
- Scotch_Roman0
That's not what Christians do, mono. I had to accept ONCE and for all the freely offered forgiveness. My faith provides a foundation for peace and contentment, and I would contend that having at least some limited knowledge of the eternal makes the temporal that much more fulfilling and meaningful.
The Christian life is not a life of contrition. The Heidelberg catechism says it best (emphasis mine):
"The chief end of man is to glorify God *by* ENJOYING him forever."
—This means, among other things, enjoying life to the fullest: because life was authored by God, and is thus good.
- Why do I need to be offered forgiveness from a figment of imagination? To what end?monospaced
- But there's the eternal circling point: what if it isn't imaginary?Scotch_Roman
- At the end of the day, simply liking or not liking an idea is not a firm foundation to stand on.Scotch_Roman
- Why bother with the imaginary when there is so much more real out there?monospaced
- You simply "like" the idea of being forgiven by a fictional dead man and his asshole father (God).monospaced
- Nope. I was dragged along kicking and screaming, but I am certainly grateful of it now.Scotch_Roman
- Oh and who made you the King of the truth market? What eternal wisdom are you basing this on?Scotch_Roman
- I for one know that my "wisdom" amounts to nothing, and know that I need to rely on something much more substantial than myself.Scotch_Roman
- myself.Scotch_Roman
- Scotch_Roman0
We don't feel the need for God's forgiveness because we don't understand our sin. I've been a Christian for some time now, and quite often I still lose sight of how completely corrupt I am without divine intervention.
Sin is so serious that it cannot be absolved, cannot be paid for by anyone with a less-than-perfect record. Justice must be served, either paid for by myself, or one who is qualified to be an advocate.
- Who told you you were corrupt? Who said you were a sinner? If it's made up, why is it so serious to you?monospaced
- what use is sin if you can't commit it?Mal
- What use is life if you can't live it?monospaced
- Amen...lolMal
- But I contend that my faith allows me to live THIS LIFE to a fuller extent, because of God's grace.Scotch_Roman
- And because even in this life, we're allowed a glimpse of the divine, a shade of a shadow.Scotch_Roman
- And I contend that without sin and fear of eternal Hell, that my life is less burdened.monospaced
- 7point340
YOU BUNCH OF FUCKER!
- sorry, wrong thread7point34
- I think it fits wellMal
- hahahaha!PlanktonBro
- Mal0
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true."
- Scotch_Roman0
mono, I know that it isn't made up, which is why it IS such a life and death matter. In fact it's even more important than that, it's a matter of how I'll spend eternity.
I first heard of sin through the church, and through the Bible, of course. I then left the church for many years, because I didn't wish to be under their thumb, and I didn't want a relationship with a God who seemed more interested in my discomfort than in my wellbeing.
Years later, I was dragged back kicking and screaming. By this point, I had built up quite a catalog of regrets. When I was honest with myself, it was apparent that I was incapable of being *truly* good. Looking around, I realized I was not alone.
So ultimately, it was not the Bible or the church that convinced me of my sin and its severity, but the Holy Spirit. It was a matter of revelation, rather than teaching.
- eternity = mythologyMal
- one does not have to believe whole cloth in the Bible to believe that some of what you say has a metaphorical truthmagnificent_ruin
- or some sort of metaphysical underpinningmagnificent_ruin
- isn't the bible the product of many centuries of editing and cleaning up?magnificent_ruin
- Human dogma really is amazing in its obtuseness and pomp.Scotch_Roman
- I should know, I used to think I could avoid God.Scotch_Roman
- No Rand, the first manuscripts were produced during or shortly after the events...Scotch_Roman
- And were carefully catalogued and preserved through the centuries. We know this because we still have most of the originals or second-generation copies.Scotch_Roman
- the originals or second-generation copies.Scotch_Roman
- I for one would not trust those parchments, scrolls, whatever. incomplete? who knows? lost chapters? weird translations?
nilsnihil - never mind all the heresies current before and after the Church controlled the message.nilsnihil
- How can heresy even be a life and death issue? The written word is open to interpretation.nilsnihil
- and some cunts use the sword.nilsnihil
- Scotch_Roman0
Furthermore, I realized that I had misunderstood God all along; he was not trying to punish me or make me miserable, but rather he wanted to keep me from wasting my life on things that won't fulfill. He was willing to take any measure to prevent me from squandering my existence. I had to learn the hard way that his plan for my life is much, much better than any plan that I or anyone else could ever conceive.
- monospaced0
You can't KNOW it isn't made up, just like I can't, so that argument is pointless. It's not even an argument at all, it's just your feeling. You have chosen to believe that you require forgiveness for your life's 'regrets.' You have CHOSEN to attribute the bad and good to an external, unseen, entity.
- Mal0
Choose Life.
- monospaced0
So, Scotch_Roman, are you saying that all non-believers are "squandering their existence?" What about those individuals who will never hear of Jesus and his teachings having been born in the wrong geographical location? You're a jerk for saying they're going to hell for not KNOWING about something, and you're a jerk for implying that our lives are not as good as yours.