flash for Ipad
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- ********0
Jobs made a mistake .. he's loosing his touch.
His fatal flaw, is that he can't ever admit when he's wrong.
- CyBrain0
I miss pre-skinny Steve Jobs.
- formed0
Continuity - you can dismiss it, if you would like, but I have to make decisions (that will cost money/time/energy) based on this crap. Simply put, that shakes things up, and in my opinion, unnecessarily.
I hope I am over blowing it, and it'll all be just fine. I would love an iPad and love to recommend it to clients.
- Look, if your clients can't understand that pandering to a comparatively small market segment makes no good business sense, that's an entirely different issue altogether.Continuity
- ... business sense, that's an entirely different issue altogether.Continuity
- fyoucher10
There's going to be a ton of iPad-like devices coming out later this year and next. I bet most of them will not only be including Flash but will be doing some hard advertising that they can view the "entire internet". Adobe will come up with a (hopefully) better version of the Flash player that plays better on these mobile devices. There's going to be so much competition that Apple will have to give in or see their competitors steal away a lot of their sales. Job's never said that they will 'never" include it, just that the Flash Player isn't good enough "right now". I thought I wouldn't really notice not having Flash on my iPhone but I notice it a lot nowadays (that could totally be contributed to porn sites though).
Yeah, iAds and Apps probably do play a small part as to why they're not letting Flash on it but realistically, it is because designers and developers have been going ape-shit on 30 second animations of video with alpha transparency just to transition in a preloader animation. Developers have been maxing out Flash for as long as I can remember, myself included. If the desktop computer can handle it, why not push the technology even more. Full screen video intro? Sure, why not? Fuck it... Problem is, a technology that isn't as fast as our desktop computer came out and now we have all of these maxed out websites that are too much for phones and iPads to handle. But, just like how the desktop eventually evolved, the mobile devices hardware will eventually be able to handle these sites. It really isn't going to be too long before that happens.
The next question that comes to mind is, is there another technology that can do what Flash can do and become as widespread and common before these mobile devices become fast enough to play back Flash adequately. Yeah, HTML5 is a great step up from 4 but it can't do 'real' animation and jQuery animations play back just as good or worse than Flash does. With that in mind, there are just too many Flash developers, too many users who already have the plugin, and too many clients who want whizz bang for Flash to just disappear.
The hardware will improve before Flash gets replaced. Until that time comes, I'd like to see more designers and developers becoming more conscious of what they're developing and making better decisions on what they're pushing onto the client's desk. Flash has been becoming more advanced and more like any other programming language but in the end it's the fact that it can also do low bandwidth animation that will set it apart from another web technology. What Flash was originally made for. With that in mind, Flash isn't going away any time soon.
So go ahead, jail-break your new $700 iPad, install Frash, and remember to go full screen on your portfolio presentation.
- CyBrain0
"is there another technology that can do what Flash can do and become as widespread and common before these mobile devices become fast enough to play back Flash adequately."
Good question and very good points.
You can't blame flash devs too much though. They just weren't building for mobile. Now that they will be, they'll be forced to be careful on some of the features you mention. But that's the same deal with HTML5.
There are a ton of demos out there showing how HTML5 animation also slows down the processor once you see a cross fade or heavy transition. You have to analyze the content as much as the medium that delivers it.
- ukit0
Again you guys are looking at this from the perspective of...well...a Flash developer: Flash is all important, Flash will be a huge selling point once other tablets (finally) support it.
I think we agree that like I said earlier, people don't look at this from the perspective of "I need this plugin." They only care about content they might be missing out on. So what exactly are they missing out on?
Video? Nope, they can still watch video. And that's a pretty big deal because video makes up a majority of Flash usage, and YouTube something like 60% of that.
Banner ads? Sort of a blessing to be rid of them. All Flash sites (like restaurant sites etc)? This might be occasionally annoying but they are few and far between these days.
Games? First off, it's not like people play serious online games in Flash - we're talking Tetris and Farmville here. And they'll have a much better experience using an app than using Flash.
Outside of that, what's left? Are people dying to go to that marketing site one of us might have worked on that's developed in Flash? This might be hard to admit but the kind of site showcased in the F W A just isn't on the radar of most people.
It seems to me that your average user simply doesn't care about this issue - or if they do, it's not to the level where they are going to dump their iPad for an aPad :) or whatever just because of Flash.
- CyBrain0
Yes we are looking at it from a developer's point of view. That's why it was called a "problem for the industry". The other side of that is that iPad users won't get as effective content in many situations. (They won't know it's because Flash isn't available.) And unfortunately, it won't be because Flash runs poorly on an iPad but because Jobs won't allow it.
- ukit0
I think an app (which is really what the iPad video player is) is always gonna to run better and more effectively than Flash. Unless you can tell me what other content people are missing (that large numbers are actually gonna CARE about), I don't see the motivation for Apple to change their approach.
On the other hand, I also think people are overplaying the importance of all this. iPad is a tiny portion of the web audience. What, like 1%? A much bigger platform, iPhone, hasn't supported Flash for years, and it was never even an issue.
- CyBrain0
Adobe could come up with the best player known to man and Jobs would still lock it out.
As far as apps go, it would depend on the developer, but Flash content on the web can run just fine in a browser or the iPad is a huge failure.
- ukit0
The truth is that Adobe dragged their feet in coming up with a good mobile Flash player. They spent too much time investing in "Flash Lite" before switching their focus to a robust mobile player. And the new version of Flash, 10.1, was not available when the iPad launched. So I think both parties are to blame, surely Adobe could have done more to ensure Flash was a solid option for devices like the iPad at the time of launch.
As far as Jobs goes, who knows what his motivations are? I wouldn't put it down to just greed. Apparently he hates keyboards too for instance, and I don't think there's much business logic there. It may be that along with the issue of competing with the app store, he simply doesn't like the idea of Flash in general and thought it was time to jettison it.
- fyoucher10
Re: ukit
1. People not knowing what they're missing: Fact is, flash is in a lot of places on the Internet and whether people realize they use it or not it's a selling point for other tablet makers to advertise their product that does see the "whole" Internet. That's a HUGE advantage for iPad competitors, especially once tablet devices become more widespread.
2. Banner ads: yeah everyone hates them but guess what, the advertising industry is BIG money, as in billions of dollars. Until another cost effective technology takes over Flash, Flash will always be here, even if Flash ends up being used exclusively for banners. I hope iAds do well but unfortunately they're not even close to even taking over Flash for an ad delivery platform. There are also companies that can transform Flash ads so that they can be viewed on iDevices (ie Greystripe). And with more online apps coming out, the more we'll probably see more 'free' ad supported versions of those apps. Ads aren't going away, even if we don't like them. Just like TV commercials.
3. Sites like the ones on the F W A: these are, for the most part, marketing sites not informational sites. These are more for brand awareness. See my post above regarding clients wanting whizz pop. It's likely people aren't going directly to these sites per say but are being delivered there in some way. That's where Flash and it's multimedia capabilities come into play. Again, the web is more than just informational. It's being used to show an experience. Closer to the likes of how television is a much more revealing experience over printed materials. HTML5 just isn't able to produce these kinds of sites.
4. Porn sites use Flash. Not just the video file but also the player that controls the video. Porn is overwhelmingly huge. It's a massive online industry. These sites aren't going to redo their entire site because of iDevices. There are a ton of these sites, a lot of them nor having the budget for changing platform. And if you're like me, the two free 30 second clips are just a few seconds short.
So Flash is already out there. It's been out there for a long time. It's everywhere. And its still being used. Maybe not on the sites that you visit but is being used on millions of other sites, whether it be for the GUI, the experience, or for advertising.
I'm not just viewing it from a developers perspective but from a business perspective and from someone who works in the advertising industry. In the end, if Flash can be used to help make MONEY, then marketers and clients will continue to ask for it and use it.
- ukit0
fyoucher, I give you points for effort but ultimately your list comes down to
1. Ads
2. Ads
3. PornPorn is an easy one, it can (and already has) been replaced with HTML5 video in a lot of cases (I'm relying on word of mouth on this, I'm not a regular iPad porn person. I'm kinda amused at the idea of someone masturbating while holding an iPad:)
As far as banner ads, even on the Android phones that support Flash, you pretty much have to browse with Flash turned off by default (equivalent of click to Flash plugin) or the experience slows down quite a bit. So that sort of kills the whole banner ad thing right there.
You make a good point that it's a problem for businesses that advertise that way, and the standards community will need to come up with a decent solution before Flash really gets replaced. However, I think there will be solutions - YouTube for instance just announced recently they are changing the way they embed movies going forward to accomodate HTML5.
At the end of the day though, I don't see how business' desire to advertise via Flash would be able to drive adoption of Android over iPad. It's a problem that needs to be solved on the business end rather than the consumer end.
- visualplane0
This
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- formed0
ukit - I guess what I don't understand is "why"? Why would I want to tell my clients that they can't have a site like they have always utilized.
Or why we have to remake their site for the iPad? You can say it is a small platform, but that's eyes that you loose, which is generally not acceptable (the older argument was 'target your audience', if they have the processing power to view full screen video, then great, do it, if not don't, but EVERYONE can still view the site).
I suppose my big point is "why should I spend money to change something that, ultimately, is zero user improvement"
- fyoucher10
Yeah, advertising, marketing, and porn. All of which play a massive part of the web and will play an even larger part once the web becomes more if a part of your TV experience.
Replacing Flash with HTML5 is a solution for porn sites but unfortunately a very costly one to make. One that most porn sites have yet to make and probably won't because of the simple fact that it is hard to wack it from your iPhone or iPad.
The current issues with Flash on mobile devices is all performance related and hardware dependent. It's just a matter of time (a very likely short period of time) before mobile devices will be able to handle whatever we throw at them. Desktops had this same issue a few years back and look where technology is today. I can remember saying, "full screen video, yeah right" not that long ago.
The whole Flash in mobile debate thing is largely because of two devices which don't support it because of performance reasons. What happens when that's not the case. When the hardware becomes better or when Flash Player becomes more optimized for mobile/tablets. That's really not that far from now. I'm thinking less than a few years if that. Flash will eventually evolve or be replaced but not that soon. Once that happens, you can bet it'll be continued to be used for the reasons I mentioned above. The web community isn't going to reinvent the wheel, and its too costly to build out an iDevice alternative.
Flash has it's uses, a lot of features that HTML can't replicate. By the time html5 becomes standard, devices will easily be able to handle Flash. We'll continue to integrate the best solutions or the best technology that the project requires, whether it's Flash or something else. Right now, regarding multimedia capabilities, Flash has a GIANT head start on any competing technology as well as a massive supporting community behind it. I just don't see iDevices as the reason for Flash becoming obsolete.
- ukit0
If we are talking about remaking an entire site that is in Flash in HTML, I'm not sure you can say it's zero improvement.
If we accept the idea that the web as a whole is moving from Flash to HTML5, then obviously people will need to make that switch at some point. And frankly it's a good thing because a huge amount of web design dollars will be spent in such an effort:)
- ukit0
@fyoucher1
"I just don't see iDevices as the reason for Flash becoming obsolete."
I agree, it's just too small an audience. Which is why I think the whole controversy is overblown to an extent. It's not like everyone is getting an iPad FFS.
At the same time, I don't see Flash on the iDevices as being all that critical either.
- The iPad may become much bigger than it is now. Probably will.CyBrain
- ukit0
And if you talk about money, what do you think companies prefer, people being able to go to their Flash site to play a game, or people buying their game via the App store?
- fyoucher10
C. Having users go to a site and playing their free game (flash-based or not) and making money off of the advertising.
- < that what the client want. not the USERS.akrokdesign
- never mind. i really don't care about this issue.akrokdesign
- They'll make much more off an appukit
- Exactly akrok. @ukit: clearly you can't be serious. Think of the business model for companies like...fyoucher1
- Google, Hulu, Yahoo etc. They make their real money from ad space they sell on their site.fyoucher1
- Continuity0
@ukit
I'm not prepared to say the whole web is moving from Flash to HTML5. I AM prepared to say we now have a greater range of tools to choose from, which will lead to better choices being made in terms of final delivery.
I would say it's balancing out, not moving away from anything.