HTML5 Facts?
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- detritus0
There's no reason Flash couldn't be used, almost as-is, to output Flash-like animations using Canvas/SVG/CSS/JS/whatever. It'd be a bit harder to output all the complex tweening (etc) functionality, but as Stewdio's pointed out with the Processing JS library, not impossible.
Just massively impractical!
'HTML5' isn't proclaiming to be a complete Flash replacement - it just fills in the multimedia gap between it and existing expectations from HTML.
I mean, it's ludicrous that we should have to rely on Flash (etc) to play a simple movie or create basic graphics on the fly.
- What I mean is - there's no reason for there not to be an 'HTML5' authoring tool with timeline functionality.detritus
- ..though that would be getting a little ahead of ourselves.detritus
- WYSIWYG doesn't work well with HTML .. which is why dreamweaver was seen as such a clusterfuck.********
- Sure, I was thinking more like a Flash2.0 basic animation editor.detritus
- yeah, I reckon tools could be produced to do specific things like animation with canvas********
- ********0
^ But Apple has a good reason for not wanting to support plugins based on technical performance. My iPhone only has 16GB and its hard enough to get a regular static webpage to display. Throw in Flash Player apps and websites and you pretty much increase the need for space and bandwidth.
However, there is a big issue on how to use HTML5 and still get the same quality of experience, you'd get on a quality flash site.
- @lukus_W********
- Believe what you will .. the point is Flash and HTML5 are different tools and will both exist at the same time.********
- YOU WILL NOT GET THE SAME EXPERIENCE FROM HTML5.********
- (sorry, for caps)********
- sure. Director even still exist along with its predated Lingo language********
- There could be great possibilities in getting the same experience with HTML5********
- However, the question is will people create great experience for an open source platform.********
- You won't be able to get the same experience out of HTML5 as you would from Flash, because HTML5 it's just markup. That's it. It's mark-up with a few bells and whistles which browser developers _may or may not_ implement anyway. Look how long it's taken for browsers to finally adopt CSS.Continuity
- That's it. It's mark-up with a few bells and whistles which browser developers _may or may not_ implement anyway. Look how long it's taken for browsers to finally adopt CSS.Continuity
- ... long it's taken for browsers to finally adopt CSS completely, for example.Continuity
- With other languages that support HTML5, you can build rich media websites********
- @lukus_W
- ukit0
I think everyone gets the wrong idea when we keep framing it like HTML5 is just designed to snuff out Flash. The aspects of HTML5 that compete with Flash are just a small subset of what they're trying to do.
I mean, it will be nice to finally have actual tags designed for page layout, right, instead of a million divs? I always catch myself typing "<header>" by mistake when I'm coding up a document, with HTML5 you will finally be able to write it like this:
There's also geolocation detection, web worker support, editable content, better storage of user info in the browser to replace cookies...some pretty good demos of some of the functionality here:
- Continuity0
At the end of the day, HTML5 is still just mark-up. That's all. It's still code that tells the browser to display stuff.
Frankly, I really don't know if mark-up can be relied on to comprehensively (read: in a really cool, efficient and problem-free way) display stuff better than anything else. If it could be, then JS, CSS, Flash and all that stuff wouldn't be needed, and wouldn't exist.
The fact that all of the technologies exist in the first place speaks to HTML's limitations as anything other than structural semantics.
- Ya, but HTML5 is truly open to CSS, JS and more...********
- Sigh.Continuity
- Sigh yourself...HTML5 is just the next version of HTML. Everything will be HTML5, Flash or no Flash.ukit
- But more powerful markups, things javascript would have to do.********
- Ya, but HTML5 is truly open to CSS, JS and more...
- detritus0
Instead of 'HTML5', what about 'Web3.2'?
- Continuity0
Also, one has to remember that the Web isn't just about Flashy campaign micro-sites, or about boring old WP-style CMS platform sites. It's a mix, and it will continue to be so.
Anyone who truly - with every fibre of their being - believes that HTML5 will be the end-all and be-all of the Web needs to have their head examined.
- but how long would you continue to use Flash when it renders obsolete?********
- Flash will have to come out with new tech that HTML5 cannot do, which will take how long?********
- but how long would you continue to use Flash when it renders obsolete?
- ********0
^ Google seems to think so.
- ukit0
"It's code that tells the browser to display stuff."
Everything is code that tells the browser to display stuff.
The fact that HTML can separate content from presentation is what makes the web work. It's the only reason Google can index stuff for instance.
"HTML5 will be the end-all and be-all of the Web needs to have their head examined."
HTML5 WILL be the end all be all, in the same way the Godfather II followed Godfather I. Even if you use Flash on every single project five years from now, most likely you will be embedding it in an HTML5 document.
- Continuity0
Ukit:
'Even if you use Flash on every single project five years from now, most likely you will be embedding it in an HTML5 document.'
100% agreed; any media type - whether it's copy, images, video, animation or whatever - will still need to be embedded in HTML, regardless of the version. That's not the point.
The point I'm trying to make is that HTML5 simply will never be the multimedia experience Flash will be, in terms of animation, effects and so on.
- ********0
HTML5 by itself will not support <font> styles and <center>. I think you can assume that it was built to use other languages and technologies. However, since actionscript is basically the same as javascript, there should be no reason that you cannot make offer the same Flash/ Actionscript experience that you can with HTML5/ Javascript.
- <center> is pointless, use CSSukit
- So is <font>Continuity
- ********0
Who remembers the transition from HTML3.2 to HTML4?
- ********0
^ Provided that someone makes a IDE for HTML5/ Javascript.
- There is no special IDE - you have to write mark-up by hand.********
- @ whatsup********
- ya i know, but jobs suggested in his note that Adobe should push Flash to open web standards********
- Sure, Steve-o. Just as soon as you drop support for H.264 in favour of Ogg.Continuity
- There is no special IDE - you have to write mark-up by hand.
- stewdio0
As far as interactivity goes... Let's forget HTML5 for a moment. What we're really talking about is the newfound power of JavaScript. (And to an extent the rediscovered power of "functional" programming languages.) The only reason HTML"5" is involved in the discussion is because of its new Canvas tag that allows you to really push the envelope using JavaScript.
JavaScript will give you all the interactivity of Flash. Perhaps not immediately, but certainly in the near future. You need a timeline? Code a timeline. Don't want to code a timeline? Someone will publish a free library with one soon. And it will be open-source. It will be shared. In a few years will look back at how silly it was that anyone argued over this.
- Behaviour (JS) / Style (CSS) / Content (HTML) - the holy trinity.********
- Most of these hardcore actionscript programmers with AS3 prefer not to use the timeline anyways because the animation was better scripted.********
- animation was better scripted.********
- That's the irony, everyone in Flash was moving that way before all thisukit
- Behaviour (JS) / Style (CSS) / Content (HTML) - the holy trinity.
- ukit0
I think part of the difference here is that some of you are judging it by what is here today and going through a point by point comparison with Flash like you are shopping for a new DVD player or something. But I don't see how that's relevant to what we'll see five years from now.
Look at the usage of JQuery today, none of it was feasible in browsers ten years ago, even though Javascript the language hasn't changed a great deal. It required browsers to improve in terms of performance, and it also took the efforts of developers to standardize the tools and make them easier to use.
So my personal opinion is that, yea, these tools will eventually replace Flash for a lot of things, but baked into that is the assumption that the capabilities and performance of browsers, JS + HTML5 will continue to improve significantly over the next couple years. That after all is what the open source aspect of the web does so well.
- Continuity0
JavaScript still has a lot of catching up to do, as far as I can tell. Go through North Kingdom's portfolio, for example; I'm by no means a JS expert, but I highly doubt their work could be faithfully recreated using HTML5/CSS/JS. Right down to the tweens, typography, effects, easing, et cetera. The whole smack.
- JS was standardised quite early on, afaik. It's quite a robust, high level language.********
- but yeah, flash is still going to have a place for a while, imo.********
- JS was standardised quite early on, afaik. It's quite a robust, high level language.
- ukit0
There's no limits guys. The only limit is your own imagination.
- stewdio0
@Continuity what? Their portfolio is Javascript only.
- Sorry, aside from the embedded Vimeo players.stewdio
- I meant their actual body of work, not their corporate website.Continuity
- ukit0
I think he's talking about their actual work.
- Like this:http://www.adid...ukit
- http://www.adidas.co…ukit
- This is such a great site.Continuity
- ********0
People who want to move from Flash, should start by making sure they know how to make regular sites using HTML(4), CSS and JS / JQuery, imo.
That's probably more valuable than fretting about whether HTML5 is going to match all the features they'll miss in Flash.
- ********0
^ Christmas is right around the corner though.
- If you can't make a site using HTML, CSS, and JS - you will fail spectacularly.********
- The game isn't starting again -> it's being extended.********
- If you can't make a site using HTML, CSS, and JS - you will fail spectacularly.