Font Licenses?
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- jimbojones0
ukit, it's not really for profit. the logic is that you put a font into SWF, it gets extracted and they loose customers. so you pay for those customers, or for the risk the foundry takes, to be exact.
If you make an Flash site and it gets ripped, don't you go bonkers?
- version30
i don't know if this makes sense, and it evens sounds like i'm stretching it already in my head but imagine an unattended public garage where all the jacks, lifts, and tools, etc were there for me to work on my car with. how long do you think all of those tools would stay there for public use? those tools were intended for a purpose to assist the public in car repair, but because of one thief, now he has a set of tools to go work on whatever he pleases.
the only reason this doesn't exactly equate is the digital aspect and the ability to copy a file, so it's not stealing if the original is still there?
- jimbojones0
It is a stretch, you can copy a digital file. And you will close the door at night, why exactly?
- ukit0
jimbo, I understand, but with all due respect that's a silly argument.
Your prices and licensing restrictions make you "lose customers" as well. Like I said earlier, it's just as likely - in fact, far more likely that the original buyer will illegally distribute the typeface than that someone would go through the task of buying a piece of SWF extraction software and trying to get the font.
Additionally, it's completely non-enforceable. What are they going to do, subpoena your FLA files and check to see if you embedded the font dynamically? They don't have the legal authority to do that.
BTW, I am totally in favor of the small foundries being able to make enough to keep doing what they do (and I spent a couple thousand dollars on fonts personally last year buying from these kinds of companies). I just think they are not showing much intelligence with these kinds of onerous licensing restrictions. It reminds me of the music industry and DRM.
- that is why some foundries mark their fonts, and then the buyer who shared makes a funny face.jimbojones
- Same thing music industry tried, with no results...ukit
- version30
the comparison of the unattended garage was to illustrate the digital files sitting around supporting someone's website, while they are not the site in and of itself, these supporting factors help the site owner achieve a desired result, if those assets were available and traceable, people would learn to download them was my point
- if the files would securely encrypted or something, NOONE would say a word.jimbojones
- and if they sort that out, i'm sure things will change, until then...version3
- until then: @font-face horrors ;)jimbojones
- haha yep :Dversion3
- jimbojones0
I will simplify it a bit: I am a foundry. I made a font. You buy it, you embed it in a SWF. Few hours later it's all over IRC and newsgroups, the bad unkerned extract. People use it instead of buying the font from me -- what do I eat? Some of them see the absence of kerning and think that all my fonts are fucked up, they never come back -- how do I pay my rent? I have to restrict the buyers in embedding, they get angry and want their money back -- how should I buy me a new car?
There just isn't a good solution.
- jimbojones0
--They don't have the legal authority to do that.--
Dude, do you have the legal authority to check QBN's source code? Do you have the legal authority to tineye the fotos that you sell and see that a few are shared on demonoid et al? Legal authority to take down your vector files on rapidshare?
- ukit0
Well, yes, actually, I can click "View Source" and see the source code. And obviously searching for stuff, pretty easy.
On the other hand, SWF is a closed format. You can't look at a SWF file and tell that fonts are dynamic or not - I know you guys are going to say you can, but not in a sense that's going to hold up in court. Ditto SWF extraction software - assuming they go to that length, is it guaranteed to be accurate? Highly doubtful.
In other words, you have a licensing restriction that is functionally non-enforceable. Hmmm, maybe it's not such a good idea then?
- courts don't care about fontsjimbojones
- read my link, they doversion3
- version30
killing people is illegal, but that doesn't stop everyone, it's the aftermath of ramifications that deter people, the laws are there to hopefully prohibit. people will after all, do what they want
- Maybe if the consequence for embedding a font in a SWF was death, you'd see some movement on that front;)ukit
- jimbojones0
Okay, to confuse you completely: as a foundry I am no so happy about my fonts floating around the interwebs, ripped or shared alike, not sure what is worse for business...
As a user I am glad that I can test drive the fonts before I buy them, without any restrictions. Not many foundries would give you demo fonts.
- every foundry i have ever contacted has provided me with a sampleversion3
- ask and explain and you will receive somethingversion3
- like a word or a paragraph, this level of service makes me a buyerversion3
- yeah, I mean just give me the full unrestricted font, or the whole family for that matter. and I don't have to provide arguments why I didn't stick with the font in the end. Did you ask H&FJ? They'd ROFLjimbojones
- why I didn't stick with the font in the end. Did you ask H&FJ? They'd ROFLjimbojones
- are you kidding me? you can test drive from their siteversion3
- er test drive a page. a table of contents, an article with different cuts and all. they just give you a watermarked lo-res bitmapjimbojones
- they don't even have PDF specimen ffs!jimbojones
- i see your complaintversion3
- bad wording on my side, it's not a demo if I have no restrictions ;)jimbojones
- i guess if you were able to test drive along side an HFJ employee, things would be different no?version3
- jimbojones0
ukit, the EULA doesn't come with a hidden cam or something. of course you CAN embed the fonts whereever you want, but you have to be aware that you have agreed not to, and if it comes out...
- ukit0
I just think that, in general, these foundries are thinking about this the wrong way. I mean, I understand that some of them may be aiming for an "exclusive" audience and actually don't want their fonts to be widely used so it does make sense in that context.
But if they are really trying to maximize profit and get their fonts to the widest possible audience, it's completely the wrong approach. When you charge $700/ font + &700/ licensing for a single usage in a Flash project that probably won't even reach a huge audience in the case mentioned here, is that really helping me make money. Um, hell no, that's causing people to leave my site and head straight to download the font illegally!
What happens when HTML evolves to allow custom font embedding in webpages as the norm? Is House Industries going to continue to try to charge me a $700 licensing fee for what will become the default media for fonts?
- NoFavorite0
Avant Garde doesn't work in Flash
- jimbojones0
ukit, @font-face is not gonna happen with major foundries. it's like giving the fonts away. speaking of House, they have weird EULA anyway, you can't use the fonts for logos for example.
anyway, that embedding fee should actually just make want to forget the embedding, because even if you pay $700, who can guarantee that it won't be downloaded worth $7000?
every foundry want to maximize the profits. if someone comes up with a method to use digital fonts as on paper, you can see (select, copy text etc) but not touch, this will be pretty much settled, the only problem will be illegal sharing.
- formed0
This is great way to deter business.
Increasing fees and charging exorbitant fees, basically nickle and diming clients just annoys people and penalizes those that want to be legit and compensate others appropriately.
- jimbojones0
if a font costs more than what you charge per hour, you're doing it wrong.
- ukit0
So you charge $1400/ hour? You must be one hell of a designer my friend;)
- version30
font cost go to the client anyway, what are we arguing about?
- jimbojones0
it is not benefitial, but what do you suggest? giving the fonts away? this is what happens anyway, some people just upload their fonts to a public ftp with the rest of design files and wonder where the extra traffic comes from. really, the foundries are just putting an extra hurdle, but in the end it's your own common sense.
- i answered your H&FJ? note from aboveversion3
- just repliedjimbojones
- coolversion3
- ukit0
Well I guess we can say the current situation is not sustainable. You can continue to raise the prices and jack up the fees and see where that gets you.
One thing to consider, I don't think it's true that every foundry wants to maximize its profit/ audience. You can't really explain the prices of a lot of these foundries except that it is a luxury type of product.
Let's say I'm paying $700 + $700 licensing fee a font. I can buy Adobe Photoshop for $400. If we're using a software analogy like v3 said, are you seriously telling me more work went into the font, than into Photoshop? There really isn't a good way to justify the price based on the value of the work itself.
Of course, there are economies of scale at work here, but when it comes to say, independently produced graphics software (PS alternative), they are not charging more than Adobe, in fact they are charging less.