Politics
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- TheBlueOne0
What's the difference between Capitalism and Communism?
Communism nationalizes private stuff and then destroys it. Capitalism does it the other way around.
- TheBlueOne0
How about this as a compromise on healthcare:
Free healthcare for all children up to age 18. Bam. Do it.
It's a win-win for any politician, you can run on "I voted to keep our children healthy". It would solve the big existential fear working adults have - i.e. "If I lose my job, I won't have health insurance for my kids..."
Then we can play with that system and see what works and what doesn't, and then expand it, if need be to other segments of the population. Maybe we won't even have to.
All the "rah rah free market" jackholes seem to forget that as much as they love touting choice in jobs, etc. that alot of creative, productive people get stuck in crappy jobs just because they have health coverage (or if they change jobs they might not be able to get insurance from another carrier because of those damn "pre-existing conditions") thus keeping work force stagnant and less productive because employees don't feel free to move jobs, careers and skill sets.
- if it were preventative and educational healthcare this would be great as it would lower the problems we have as adultsversion3
- ...have as adults. obesity diabetes cholesterol etc.version3
- Yup. Exactly.TheBlueOne
- I like this idea.IRNlun6
- ********0
wow. It's genuinely great to witness the lack of ignorance present in this thread.
It's wonderful to see that information that, not too long ago, would have been regarded as 'crazy' or dis-regarded altogether, is being freely and productively discussed.
it's great.
- ukit0
It is just funny so see how far off the right wing commentary is.
I mean, read this article about Max Baucus and keep in mind, this guy runs the Finance Committee in the Senate, probably the key figure in getting health care passed.
http://www.billingsgazette.net/a…
Is this "socialism" or "Communism?" What a fucking joke.
- ukit0
Here is another good read...
- ukit0
http://blog.sunlightfoundation.c…
Today, former senators Tom Daschle and Bob Dole released a plan for health care reform that is being hailed a bipartisan way forward. Headlines blare about the Daschle/Dole plan for health care. But were these two to not have had illustrious careers in the Senate, the headlines would tell a far different story: “Health Care Lobbyists Release Health Care Plan.”
Both Daschle and Dole work for a major Washington, DC lobbying firm, Alston & Bird. Many of Alston & Bird’s major clients are from the health care sector including the American Hospital Association, HealthSouth Corp, and pharmaceutical companies Abbott Laboratories, Bayer, Celgene, and Mylan Laboratories. In total, Alston & Bird is currently representing 31 clients from the health care sector. Of the $2,730,000 reported income received from clients, nearly 50% of that, $1,070,000, comes from these 31 health care clients.
- TheBlueOne0
I mean, there are some truly incredible things that the US healthcare system does. It's the best at saving lives in extreme cases. Awesome trauma units, great invasive surgery, etc. I mean my wife routinely does more cardiac caths in a week in the US than she ever did even in Japan. But even she comes home sometimes and says "You know, we cathed this 93 year old woman today. At best she'll have another month to live and she's in constant pain from other things and on high levels of pain medication. I don't understand why in America it's considered a wise use of resources to do this. In Japan a person at that age, in that type of bad health would feel ashamed to take up that type of medical service when it could be used for younger, healthier people." I get her point, and see the merit in it, but don't always agree with her. But I'm American. And it's exactly that type of medicine - at the edges which flows down into the system, giving doctors better skillsets and technology to treat younger patients more aggressively and efficiently. We do that better than anywhere else in the world.
What we totally suck in is preventative and educational healthcare. Yes, we can keep you alive after a heart attack, but we have no real system in place to keep you from becoming an overweight, diabetic moron who will have no choice but need advanced medical procedures in your 40's.
We need a new paradigm, not just throw money at the problem.
- ukit0
How about actual socialism?
The more I read, the less bad it's starting to sound.
- *awaits TruthHurts to babble something and post funny pictures of ObamaTheBlueOne
- How about you ask sputnik since I believe she's the only one (I know of) to witness your real socialism first hand?tommyo
- and Georgesl and Pascii and Janne and...DrBombay
- tommyo0
One thing to remember is this.
The powers that are established today will still be there tomorrow. If you agree with Obama, great, but who is the president of tomorrow? We'll have another idiot like W calling the shots one day, to think otherwise is completely foolish. How much power do you really want to put in governments hands? How many tools do you want Dubbya 2.0 to have at his disposal?
With things like warrant-less wiretapping being illegally set in motion by Bush, and then approved/extended by the Dems a few months ago, exactly how many of these powers do you think gov will ever do away with?
IMO, we shouldn't be so quick to give 'fix it' power away today at the expense of tomorrow.
- 47 million people do not have insurance. You will still be able to buy your own insurance, though. So I don't get it.DrBombay
- Oy, you really don't see how these things start and how they end do you? That's today's plan. Just look at some historytommyo
- in this country and the slippery slopes are endless.tommyo
- Just look at how tobacco taxes are now turning into potato chip taxes and soda taxes, next will be fat taxes levied on fat content.tommyo
- So fuck 47 million people... I still haven't heard a viable solution from you about the issue.DrBombay
- And just wait till gov is REALLY footing the bill for health care. Oh joy. But hey, stick to the topic, how's it going to be for youtommyo
- when Bush 2.0 is trying to manage the health funds? What's gov going to spend your 60 or 80 percent of YOUR incometommyo
- income on?tommyo
- Still no viable solution...DrBombay
- This country is fucking losing on the world stage. But keep on truckin'DrBombay
- Medical Co-ops is one solution. But health care isn't really what this post was about so I digress.tommyo
- the thing is BUsh's legacy is that he gave shit loads of power to the ENTIRE government for many years to come. Obama's regime too.lazerbass
- I'm not going to play with you today Dobs. :)tommyo
- You agree there needs to be a change but hate government, keep chasing your tail.DrBombay
- ukit0
What powers are we talking about? This is what I mean, I see people on the right coming at it with a kind of general ideological critique, government = bad, private industry = good.
But how is that even relevant when we're getting f*cked over by both the government AND the private industry, working hand in hand? The bigger problem should be severing the link between the two, so the government can act as an actual neutral regulator of private industry.
- lazerbass0
Canada has been doing the social-democracy thing like for 40 years at least, yall should consult with them neighbors of yours.
- designbot0
My crazy thought is that most of America's health problems actually stem from our horrible diet. The super refined and processed foods we eat lack the vitamins and nutrients our bodies need and suppress our immune systems. The toxic and foreign agents we are exposed to everyday are the cause of everything from brain tumors to cancer. We need to look at the lowest common denominator, and this is not health care reform. Sadly I know this will never happen. It's the same reason why Chinese medicine and other natural medicines will never be the normative in America either. Instead they will continue to be suppressed....all for money. I can just see the drug companies chanting the mantra "Keep 'em sick".
I wonder what type of profound butterfly effect just changing our diets and the way we produce food would have on our national health.
- Agreed. And you can thank Government for subsidizing Big Agriculture for this one. Corn Syrup FTW!TheBlueOne
- It's like a one-two punch between the two...TheBlueOne
- yes for sure...you should check out a documentary called "King Corn" it talks all about this...crazy stuff.designbot
- ukit0
Pop quiz for my right wing friends, how many wealthy, industrialized countries have a universal health care system?
How many don't?
- designbot0
^The real question should be to ask those people from countries with universal health care what they think of it.
- That was my point above. They're great at broken bones, preventative care, etc...TheBlueOne
- ..not so great at advanced procedures re: cancer, cardiac, etc...TheBlueOne
- And as you pointed out - diet and health maintenance are a HUGE problemTheBlueOne
- Which is something other industrialized countries do better than us - Japan, France, etc...TheBlueOne
- yeah, agreed. I've talked to lots of people under it, and they usually swear every other word to describe the care they get :)designbot
- You fix diet, fitness and you eliminate alot of the need (cost) for the advanced stuffTheBlueOne
- But of course that'd be "denying personal freedom" or whatever...TheBlueOne
- I eat right and stay fit, trust me, I have more personal liberty than the 400lb douche who eats at McDonalds and smokes and says that's "his right"TheBlueOne
- it's his "personal right". Whatever. Dude can't even walk across a fucking street.TheBlueOne
- Yeah, I've been changing diet for sometime....also getting into natural remedies....the hippies were right all along (thanks dad!)designbot
- what do you want, a nanny state? :)IRNlun6
- DrBombay0
Also why do medical procedures cost so much more in the US...
Besides malpractice insurance too you fucking dittoheads :)
- Because imho we tend to focus on the extreme end of medicine. There ARE pluses to it, but it's expensive.TheBlueOne
- ukit0
The answer BTW is,
a) All of them, except us, and
b) One (the U.S.)
- IRNlun60
I see the potential benefits to a public healthcare plan, but am in tommyo's camp on trusting the government when it comes to efficiency in running anything. But without the public option, the public at large really has no say on how the system should work. That will be dictated by for-profit businesses that have greater influence in our politics.
In my opinion, the reason a public plan won't work is because those that don't support or are representing private business will do whatever it takes to mismanage, underfund, and basically swipe the rug out of a program that 'could' work. Seems like this is the case with just about all government run programs. If the next administration or ruling party doesn't support it, well then we will have another overly funded, broken plan.
- tommyo0
Ukit,
Well let's see.. Bush I believe did more signing statements than any other president. Revoked The Posse Comitatus Act which made it so active military units couldn't be on US soil. Started a war without congressional approval until after the fact... Oh there's more.. wiretapping, which the Dems obviously liked since it's still up and running without getting rid of the 'warrantless' part. Prison detainment of US citizens without showing probable cause.
Increases in gov spending which increases gov debt which increases taxes which is a direct increase of gov power...
All examples of the more media worthy shit that W pushed through, all of it creates that legal concept called 'precedence.' Now we've got gov firing ceo's, telling banks that they can't return TARP funds (presumably because gov likes the little barbed hooks that they've been able to get into the banks and they like having a bit more power in that arena), these are all just little power grabs no? Or do you honestly think that these are just temporary?
"There is nothing more permanent than a temporary government program."
- TheBlueOne0
There are so many overall financial advantages to public healthcare for society in general. Imagine running a small business with 500 employees or so and not having to have that as part of your overhead or worry...you'd be far more competitive in the global marketplace.