Politics
- Started
- Last post
- 33,755 Responses
- ********0
What came from the G20 today?
Potentially a NEW nuclear arms treaty between the USA and Russia. This could be very good, if in fact it actually begins to pan out.
- The US needs to improve relations with Russia in order to put pressure on Iran as well.TheBlueOne
- lowimpakt0
in other news.
I'm quite happy about the new diplomatic conversations happening between the US and Russia. A possible concrete outcome of Obama's conversations today is a significant reduction in the global nuclear arsenal. It looks like each country will cut about a thousand warheads....
While it's nice to see a change in international atmosphere during the bush/republican years it is also likely to lead Obama in a stronger position with future discussions with Iran and North Korea (because of Russia's links etc etc)
- yup.TheBlueOne
- oh snaplowimpakt
- See above.********
- what?TheBlueOne
- weird.TheBlueOne
- GR+TBO=lowimpaktTheBlueOne
- God forbid!!! :-)********
- tommyo0
^^ I agree with Obama and I really wish we'd tried to go this route before. The gov involvement imo does some very very bad things when they bail out these companies.
1. The company never truly fixes what got them into the situation. I know in the case of GM, the gov was trying to force them to retool. But with the same breath, is gov really the entity well suited to tell a business how to run?
2. It makes the company look weak, thus reducing confidence in their product. Making their phoenixlike rise from the ashes even more improbable. Just look at how Wall St has treated bailed out companies.
3. It stirs up the 1984 type sentiments when you have gov firing ceos in the guise of public interest.
4. Now the gov has a stake in the companies future health, which to me this is one of the biggest issues. As an executive of a company your biggest responsibility is to your shareholders, us. To what end though? We've already watched the theories about gov favoring Goldman Sachs. We'd be venturing into new waters and frankly, gov is not an entity suited to run and manage businesses. They just aren't. They actually plain suck. They're the epitome of 'decision by committee' bureaucracy and waste.
I really don't think this is a healthy road to go down in terms of business and gov tied together. I realize we're not in ideal times but there have been systems in place to handle failing companies, it's called bankruptcy and I think we need to use that tool in favor of government handing out tax dollars. Even if you believe that Obamas administration has the integrity to handle these issues with a steady hand .. what about the precedent being set and the future leaders? Will they have the integrity? Would you shit your pants (literally) if it were Bush making the decision to fire CEOs? I would.
- You do know that when companies go bankrupt the government steps in to manage their assests right?TheBlueOne
- Through a court and not the executive branch, but it's still the government...TheBlueOne
- "the precedent being set and the future leaders?" That was set either in 1861 or 1931, depending.TheBlueOne
- I know that. It's the actually running and interest in the success of said company that I think is wrong.tommyo
- TheBlueOne0
"I agree with Obama and I really wish we'd tried to go this route before."
See, I've been saying this from the beginning that I thought (and hoped) Obama was playing a "long game" here. He's a cagey poltiical operator who plays shit very close to his vest. To have just walked in the door and said "OK, we're going to let these things fail" might have been devastating for the markets. He's been playing this "well, let's try this halfass measure and see if it works..if it doesn't we'll see...."
I'm guessing he's using GM as a guinea pig here..."let's let it fall into a "soft" bankruptcy and try out our methods of turning it around quickly, and depending on that success either apply the same method to applicable financial institutions or, if the process fails, nationalize the banks outright..."
I really hope that's what's going on here...he's really stage managing this whole thing..I hope...
- BattleAxe0
even so , what was written and what was reported do not add up,
we all heard of the Bonuses, the extravagant retreats, the corporate jets ,having this done in the midst of a transition of power gives this plenty of smoke and mirrors
I never bought into the crisis, I mean they gave GM and Chrysler 25 billion and now they say well your SOL, and we will forgive that loan we just gave you ;
there was never a Crisis
- designbot0
With all the drama and issues we have seen so far, isn't it becoming blatantly obvious that the government should stay the hell out of the bailout business?
I can't wait to see how people react after loads of tax money goes to business that end up failing anyway. Sorry if I sound overly cynical, but come on!
I'll wait a few months before I say "this shit isn't working!" though.
- I cringe when I think of the government continuing to flex it's muscle and get involved in running these businesses.designbot
- I really don't think the government wants to run these businesses.TheBlueOne
- They probably don't, but that's what is happening. It's a seemingly inevitable predicament they have gotten into.designbot
- TheBlueOne0
Was the auto industry in "crisis", probably not. GM was because of GMAC (it's financial division).
We do have a financial sector crisis in this country and a housing industry crisis. Auto industry was killing itself by slow suicide...
But the whole problem is that GM is so tied into so many ancillary businesses - auto parts suppliers, dealerships, rental agencies, etc. That it's failure could have profound effects on an already reeling economic situation.
- ********0
If GM files for bankruptcy, when the American people realize that billions of their tax payer dollars (i.e.: "funny money") ALREADY loaned are to be washed away, they will be completely outraged. AIG will pale by comparison.
What does this do to the Administration? I tend to think that this is a no-win situation for president Obama.
- Hey, I was enraged by the trillions we spent on the Iraq war...TheBlueOne
- ukit0
Well, you gotta choose between some pretty shitty options.
1) Bails out companies but doesn't try to regulate/ make changes - People accuse the company of getting a free ride and are pissed. News media find out some CEOs got a few million in bonuses, throws collective hissy fit.
2) Bails out company, fires CEO - OMG, it's socialism.
3) Do nothing - Global financial system/ economy goes down in flames. Bring on Mad Max type situation.
- I'm not convinced that option 3 would have produced that effect. But you're right, shitty choices all around.tommyo
- think of all the cool hair , on option #3BattleAxe
- I think option three was pretty likely..in the 75-80% range.TheBlueOne
- What about all the debt our country has assumed w 3? Isn't that just as likely to fuck us ... tomorrow and not today?tommyo
- depends. It could. But depends.TheBlueOne
- BattleAxe0
"We do have a financial sector crisis in this country and a housing industry crisis. "
I just do not see it Blue , I mean I own a small business, and yes we took a hit, people are spending less, I am cutting hours back on employees , but that is the business world , not a "Crisis" , people not spending money is called a Crisis?
- Financial Scam is what it is, and should be calledBattleAxe
- I'm in the architect/constructi... industry. Crisis. I'm probably out of a job in another month.TheBlueOne
- you would evolveBattleAxe
- designbot0
^Ironically I have 2 friends who started a new business and are opening their doors in a month.
I am really curious to see how it goes for them.
- ukit0
The problems with securities in the financial industry are a crisis.
I mean, being skeptical of the government is a good idea, but there are plenty of independent economists who can explain the fact that there is a massive crisis.
- ********0
My wife and I started a new business 8 months ago, and it has been growing month-to-month at a rate of 130%-240%. We're always asked why we started, particularly, and publishing business in a recession. Regardless of this recession, it's working out great.
- TheBlueOne0
Even during the Great Depression you saw plenty of successful business start up and thrive. But what you have is those businesses that were the primary engine of the existing economy freeze up...in this current case the financial sector, the housing sector and auto. All are clusterfucked. It's not really meaning that OMG! Everyone will be broke! But rather you have huge amounts of painful economic dislocation that threaten the security of the society.
- which is my beef to begin with, bailout Main Street , once shit hits the fan,BattleAxe
- not big business to prevent shit hitting the fanBattleAxe
- cause the shit is on the way regardlessBattleAxe
- yeah, but business depends on bankingTheBlueOne
- ..and besides banks got the cash. First lesson: He who has, gets.TheBlueOne
- interesting takeBattleAxe
- tommyo0
What I'm wondering is:
Can we create a new country of QBNistan where we pool all the design talent and become the worlds largest exporter of Design and Asshole Douche Bags? I think we could. I believe in change and hope. I'm an optimist.
- no but we can start a County in the middle of nowhereBattleAxe
- Let's do it. I even like the name you came up with. Country in the Middle of Nowhere. We might build some tourismtommyo
- dollars with a name like that. You can be BattleAxe, the Secretary of Tourism.tommyo
- all we need is a well and a windmill, it will be 1809 all over againBattleAxe
- The simplicity of 1809 appeals to my sensibilities.tommyo
- hmm we still need to be in a State, im thinking WyomingBattleAxe
- Can I be a Diplomat?********
- Sounds good to me. All I want to do is work, fuck and be a full fledged mountaineer / backpacker. I'm simple.tommyo
- work and fuck... LOL!********
- GF hows County Commissioner soundBattleAxe
- ok... anything I can do to serve my (new-found) country.********
- COUNTY!BattleAxe
- ********0
^^ Good point TBO
To keep in mind, that leading America out of the great depression, were DOMESTIC industries like autos, oil, manufacturing, high-technology, Financial, etc. These industries thrived and grew for decades to follow.Today, we're severely weakened, and domestically, less concentrated in just about all of the afore mentioned industries and markets. Given this condition, exactly "what" leads us out of this recession, and takes us on a path that is upward?
Can "Green" tech substitute Oil? Does our auto industry return to its former glory days? Does domestic manufacturing increase and strengthen? Do we continue to lead in technology?
- IRNlun60
I believe this administrations threats of 90% increase on taxes for recipients of bailout funds and asking Rick Wagoner to step down were just to counter the public and private sentiment of a free handout.
So many companies were lining up for a bailout that didn't really need it. Ford for one...
- TheBlueOne0
What leads us out? Good question.
Definitely some sectors of tech. Alternate energy hopefully. Aerospace....
The bigger question I think is does the US come out of it all still retaining the dollar as the global reserve currency. If it does, then we can manage the government debt. If not, world of hurt and we become post WW2 UK...
- ********0
^ Jay Leno said about R. Wagoner's firing that,
"It's embarrassing when a guy gets fired for losing billions, by a guy who is losing trillions"...
No hate mail please. Thought this was a funny joke coming from Leno, that's all.
- zingBattleAxe
- haha that is pretty funny.tommyo
- ^^********
- ha!TheBlueOne
- hahaIRNlun6
- tommyo0
I know there is a lot of uncertainty these days folks, and there are plenty of things that I do not know. I'm okay with this. However there is one thing that I am absolutely certain about and that's that Jay Cutler will not be playing for the Denver Broncos next season. Which makes me happy since now I will not need to watch his pinched up whiny babyfat face while my San Diego Chargers kick their asses twice every year. I hope he ends up in Detroit. Or better yet, I hope he ends up in St. Louis playing for the Rams.
- :)lowimpakt
- the jets.********
- and LT makes the same faces as him, but cries in public ;)********
- I'll take my crying running back who will surely have a bronze bust in Canton over your bust of a quarterback ...tommyo
- oh yes...yes I did. I fucking said it!tommyo
- a never wasBattleAxe
- hahaha, this will be his first full season. You watch, Russell is gonna bust out.********
- Bust out of his pants maybe ...
:Dtommyo