Mr Bean wins spanish elections
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- rounce
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world…
...ahh this username still has that new car smell.
- ismith0
Uncanny.
- rafalski0
Don't they just love socialismo? Will they ever learn?
That's bad, I really wanted to move there and no way their economy will improve with this nanny government.- sure the is some bad things about socialismo, but compare to capitalismo, its better.akrokdesign
- I don't want to argue, it's just I moved to Ireland for its capitalismo that pays for my trips to beloved Spain.rafalski
- i understand.
nice photos by the way. rafalski.akrokdesign
- akrokdesign0
this week spanish lesson. heh.
- a new adobe product?jar
- haha...could be.akrokdesign
- Yes!Reed_Barrington
- rafalski0
Did you know that in Spain you have to pay flat €250 a month for the pleasure of being a freelance designer? It is a social tax and it comes even before income tax, whether you had income in this particular month or not. This is €3000/year only to be registered for freelance.
I would love to be mistaken and be corrected on this, that's the info I got from a few freelancers in Barcelona.For comparison, in the UK, if you register as a Sole Trader and have no income, you only pay £2 a week (or correct me).
In Ireland, you pay 3% to 5% of your income (but minimum about €250 a year).- thats pretty hefty.
akrokdesign - then again, it pays for other things. which one or an other way, has to get payed.akrokdesign
- yeah, in the UK you pay about £2(ish) a week in NI contributions as a sole trader.jar
- imo it's govt's way of sweeping the market off small fries, paving the way for biggies. Same €250/mo in Polandrafalski
- keep your irish clients and dinnae pay tax. I lived like a king in Spain.kelpie
- thats pretty hefty.
- ovsm0
- rafalski0
This is becoming a Spanish norm: a terrorist attack just before election influences voters. Last Friday, two days before the election ETA killed a Basque socialist politician in order for socialists to get voters sympathy. It's no secret that it was in ETA's best business to keep this mild government in place.
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/…- < !kelpie
- +1rounce
- that's a very long-shot, raf.Corvo
- OK, so these are unrelated, they killed him unaware election was ahead..
"Look for the one that benefits"rafalski - apparently didn't work that well since PSOE lost its previous majority - now they have to deal with PP esp on that issueCorvo
- sounds a little far fetched, rafalski.vrmbr
- This is how I saw it also.turosatano
- OBBTKN0
^ Sorry, but rafalski you´re very simplist!!
Come, take my hand and i´ll explain what is getting in my country, and later, you´re going to be more informed for to going to talk about on internet forums.
- rafalski0
You're right OBBTKN, this is a very simplified view. I agree my approach here was to simply connect the dots, rather than trying to get the whole complex picture.
This is simple socio-mechanics, this is how a crowd works - you kill someone and people will sympathize with his group. Do this 2 days before the election and.. you get the picture.
This worked for Madrid bombers just before the previous election (Spain withdrew the troops), this time someone used the same trick.
I'm not saying this for sure defined the election results, only that it was meant to.
Having said that, I'd love to get a deeper view OBBTKN.
- busy to send you a deeper view, sorry, but all i can say the situation is getting more complex day by dayOBBTKN
- Corvo0
2004 - 0
2005 - 0
2006 - 2
2007 - 2
2008 - 1doesn't look like an election-time pattern to me. Also the Madrid was al-qaida.
- rafalski0
I am only talking about previous elections Corvo. Was it al-quaida or whatever (presumably not ETA), I'm saying the idea is the same:
let's murder someone just before the election in order to influence the masses.
- OBBTKN0
On first term, it´s supposed Al Qaeda bombed Madrid to punish spain coz spanish troops are on Irak with us and uk troops (Azores talks, etc...). On this time, spanish popular party government intented to asign the killings to ETA, but the investigation line says ETA was not involved, politics near to ETA says they are not involved on this... but even the popular party continue on his roots, knowing, if the masses know the truth, they are going to loose the elections for this reason... This were 2004 elections.
This year ETA is in downfall, internal pression for definitive ceasefires, police actions, and hundreds of arrestments is doing the armed people loss his influence...
And this last killing was intented to say, eh! i´m here... still i´m able to kill. Say it to spanish government, not spanish voters. I think people got decided what will going to vote without this killing on mind.
And say, ey! no talks for peace, let´s fight and kill like allways! to his masses. Masses that are turning his back on them, masses who like peace, finally peace!
- Not this Azores Talks again... I see this in the Spanish media all the timeturosatano
- rafalski0
Thanks OBBTKN, I understand this is still a rough sketch, getting deeper would take us hours of talking and probably a lot of wine (hey, why not try this someday?)
It is to say this government was relatively easy on ETA . Obviously ETA would rather keep that government and not have Partido Popular back. As you said, ETA violent methods cause Basque people turn their backs on them, cause what people eventually want is to live in peace.
That's (in my opinion) why they killed just before the election: so people, shocked by ETA's attack would vote for current government.. which is what ETA actually wants(!)
I might be wrong, of course. These calculations are not that simple indeed. The killing might get people (especially in mainland Spain) to vote for the party that offers to crush ETA better (PP) and actually could've been bad for PSOE.
Still, I don't believe such demonstration of power placement just before the election was accidental.It is true, as Kelpie noticed that I would prefer Spain (or any country) to have a government that offers social liberalism, but moreso economic one. I'm just generally pro-freedom and think that socialism is a flawed idea that ends in high taxes, unemployment, state and (to some people surprisingly) corporate monopolies. So yes, I might be biased.
But in this case, I'm also fascinated by the pure socio-mechanics of the situation, by ways of influencing the masses in a democracy. Triggering people's actions without them knowing they're doing what you want.
That's why when I read the news, I'm putting on the cynical glasses that help me see between the lines. I try to look at what they do, and the results of what they do, skipping what they say.Funny not everyone here realises it's a similar kind of business most of us are in - influencing people's decisions by design. We photoshop people and things to look better and sell advertised products better.
I loved this quote from "The Devil Wears Prada":
"Oh... ok. I see, you think this has nothing to do with you. You go to your closet and you select out, oh I don't know, that lumpy blue sweater, for instance, because you're trying to tell the world that you take yourself too seriously to care about what you put on your back. But what you don't know is that that sweater is not just blue, it's not turquoise, it's not lapis, it's actually cerulean. You're also blindly unaware of the fact that in 2002, Oscar De La Renta did a collection of cerulean gowns. And then I think it was Yves St Laurent, wasn't it, who showed cerulean military jackets? And then cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of 8 different designers. Then it filtered down through the department stores and then trickled on down into some tragic casual corner where you, no doubt, fished it out of some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs and so it's sort of comical how you think that you've made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry when, in fact, you're wearing the sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room. From a pile of stuff."
- turosatano0
On the Madrid Bombings:
It was 4 years ago today.
The Spanish government at the time blamed ETA for the bombs because EVERYONE blamed ETA for the bombs.
Up to that point ETA had killed 800 people all over Spain and was fond of doing it right before general elections.
To OBBTKN: don't make it sound like it was crazy to blame ETA.
Spain, politically, is completely irrelevant in the world. Spain supporting the war in Iraq barely made any news and you believe AL QAEDA would attack you for it?
And as for AL QAEDA being behind the bombings... let's see, there were no suicide bombers, all people arrested were Spanish or Moroccan. most of them small town drug dealers and/or police informers. All were arrested hours after the bombings, by the governement you say "was holding the truth from the masses". Bush doesn't even mention Madrid to sell his war on terror, not even at his most desperate.
Voters that day had on one hand, an administration in shock, arresting a bunch of petty thieves in connection with the bombings, and was telling the public "OK, it wasn't ETA but look here! this is pretty strange!", and on the other hand the opposition party and a good portion of the media saying this has happened because Spain invaded Irak. No wonder people were enraged.
Felipe Gonzalez, the former Spanish socialist PM for 11 years, who got Spain in the EU has been quoted by one of Spain's biggest newspapers as saying that the Madrid bombings was a job ETA orchestrated to look "Islamic". This is ignored by the media in Spain in general but in any event, you can't just come into new territory owned by ETA for 40 years and plant a bunch of bombs, I don't care if you're AL QUAEda, without ETA knowing about it.
Everything that has happened to Spain since then is a consequence of that traumatic event, and the traumatic change of government that followed. The whole political agenda is petty provincial affairs and no foreign policy or foreign presence whatsoever. The economy doesnt play a role. This is not about left or right, it's about something else.
The Basque separatists isn't even the point any more. The rest of Spain is so sick of them they would welcome a separate Basque country.
Catalonia, however, has been the key since the new governemt that emerged from the bombings. The new PM introduced amendments to the constitution that are very small, have been done very slowly but which are very important: The "Estatut". A new chapter in the constitution redefining Catalonia's state of autonomy. In essence A new constitution for the whole country without the Spanish people being asked about it. The consequence, already in written, is that in 10-15 years Spain, the oldest "modern" country in the world, will not exist as it is today.
- Are you pointing Madrid 9M to ETA again?? Did you talked with anybody not from spanish media for knowing this??OBBTKN
- Interesting, brings us back to
The Dude: "It's like Lenin said, look for the one who benefits..and..um..y...rafalski - where did you read that Spain is oldest "modern" country in the world? "Spain" was formed in 1460+ from the union of...Corvo
- Castilla + Aragón. Turosatano you sound like you've been reading the newspapers.Corvo
- I wish there was a single newspaper that talked about this, but apparently nobody cares. and if you want, substitute that for "one of the oldest countries in the world, thats not really the point.turosatano
- substitute that for "one of the oldest countries in the world, thats not really the point.turosatano
- no the point is that systematic inaccuracies end up in blunders, like saying the rest of Spain would welcome a...Corvo
- ...separate country. More than half of ETA attacks have been on Basque soil, and that speaks for its complexity.Corvo
- And the Basque issue is only one of the separatist movements running in the Peninsula. It seems different,Corvo
- The rest of Spain is on the verge of giving up on the Basque, seeing that a bigger problem is coming from Catalonia,using a civilized method that doesnt involve killing or supporting killers.turosatano
- using a civilized method that doesnt involve killing or supporting killers.turosatano
- apart from that I urge you to find me the "systematic innacuracies" you are speaking of.turosatano
- because it's the strongest, but there is also the Galician separatist group (their depots are permanently dismantled)Corvo
- and the Leonese separatists, which have much less political strength but are culturally active.Corvo
- one of those inaccuracies is saying that the spanish presence in Iraq was irrelevant. why would it matter to Bush asCorvo
- it did at the time? It's not just soldiers that matters in modern warfare.Corvo
- Why has Obama said that if he wins he will demand + support from OTAN countries on foreign military issues?Corvo
- Is it because they're irrelevant?Corvo
- Corvo, alright, go word for word, I'm sure you can find a few more. I d love to stay but I have to go. I have had dozens of conversations where the other part says, wait the problem is so complex,turosatano
- I have had dozens of conversations where the other part says, wait the problem is so complex,turosatano
- you just can't be sure of anything. Guess what, the problem was complex 30 years ago. Now the conversation I wanna have is how on earth ETA has managed to amass enough power to bring an nations political agenda to its knees.turosatano
- wanna have is how on earth ETA has managed to amass enough power to bring an nations political agenda to its knees.turosatano
- Also, as to inner affairs in the Peninsula, it's really much more complicated than being just bored with killings...Corvo
- Aah - how ETA managed that power? That's simple - they say they are different from the rest.Corvo
