Independence for Scotland
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- kelpie0
personally I'm torn between worrying whether our innate lack of confidence and mistrust of success would ruin it for an independent Scotland, or whether we require the kick up the arse to make it work out...
- OBBTKN0
But the price to pay is not desirable, for nobody, believe me
OBBTKN
(Apr 24 07, 03:48)
--------------what do you mean?
lowimpakt
(Apr 24 07, 03:57)I say that much things are done bad here, for getting some advantages.
I dont wanna the same for the scotish.
And, those things are obvious.
- FrdmOfSpch0
Umm, sorry kelpie, i'm not basing my opinions on "unionist propaganda". This is direct from the European Unions Legal Advisers.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/…
Scotland would have a big problem becoming an independent EU state. EU enlargment in the last 5 years has caused a constitutional crisis. Various nations of EU have enacted laws where any new EU members will be voted in on referendums. The whole mechanism has ground to a halt.
Scotland's breakaway memerbship would be completely without precedent and would send shockwaves on the whole federalist ideal of Europe. It would have impllications for the diverse nationalisms across the whole of Europe. Over 100 of which are officially recognised. Would be the first step to a true United States of Europe.
And Europe has always been a conglomeration of warring states and nationalism.. Sure you feel more certain of your own statehood, but then that bias is understandable. But, since the treaty of Westphalia, vritually all states in Europe (and, across the world) are a form of union between formally independent state's and Kingdoms. Well, except liechtenstine. Prussians, Catalans, Sicillians...
- FrdmOfSpch0
Germany, Italy, and various other countries have an official history shotrter than that of the British Union.
Prussia, Bavaria, etc. etc. and the states of Italy were all independent "kingdoms" until, say 150 years ago or less.
- Nairn0
I think talk of an independent Scotland now is stupid, frankly.
Having grown up outside Scotland and indeed, the UK, I've become the typical ex-Pat and searched out and held onto Scottishness for what it means for me.
People tend to forget that the engine of British empire and for the development of much of our liberalism and ideals came from Scotland - it's been an intractable component of Britishness for over 200 years.
The political issue is one between the extremes of North and South - between London and everywhere else in the UK, and the sooner that is addressed, the sooner we can forget about all this shit and try and work out a fair system for everyone - for Scots, Northerners, people in Cornwall - anyone that feels disenfranchised by the behemoth that is the Capital City.
- lowimpakt0
And, those things are obvious.
OBBTKN
(Apr 24 07, 04:04)
----------------------Is that not an issue specific to the spanish government's handling of the structural funds? if that is what you are talking about??
p.s. are you going to Primavera this year?
- lowimpakt0
nationalism is redundant.
every country is sound.
- Nairn0
er.. My point being that Scottish nationalism (in my limited opinion) seems to stem from vocal idealists (like my uncle) who, frankly, don't really live in a commercial or industrial reality, but hanker for something which doesn't really exist for the great majority of people - of working folk.
And the fact that the current Labour administration consists of a bunch of deceitful demegogal cunts.
- kelpie0
If you lived here you'd know that the Scotsman is quite a right of centre, Conservative, pro-union paper, it consistently couches its news and arguments to lean in favour of those views and those of its readership.
Of course gaining EU membership would not be seamless, of course it would require negotiation, the SNP are a bit of a joke to be honest (which they seldom are), but we would gain entry post-negotiation.
The research mentioned in the article all comes from "UK" organisations, and all is slanted by the Scotsman's agenda.
your example of negotiations - Turkey - is daft to say the least. Its been quite a while since human rights violations have taken place in Scotland, and Turkey is not a part of a current EU state
the last paragraph in your last post has willfully ignored my point, and shown a complete lack of constitutional and historical knowledge regarding the United Kingdom too, btw.
- OBBTKN0
p.s. are you going to Primavera this year?
lowimpakt
(Apr 24 07, 04:10)Can´t... i wish (particularly to seeing modest mouses new sound live), but my daugthers need a father at home this days, and i loss easy the balance with 10 liters of beer on the stomach ;))
sorry
- FrdmOfSpch0
nationalism is redundant.
every country is sound.
lowimpakt
(Apr 24 07, 04:11)I think so. I think it would be great.
I think a lot of the modern secessionist parties offer a modern inclusive version of nationalism, not some atavistic vision based on blood or tribe.
turning the EU or parts of it into a sort of United States of Europe with a lot of autonomous mini-regions. That, you might say, was once the federalists' ultimate fantasy: a Europe that has banished nations, and therefore nationalism, and therefore the terrible conflicts to which nationalism has historically given rise.
But i'm also a realist as to way the EU functions, and its gritty determinism to hold on to its Congress of Vienna models.
The Scots or the Basque etc.. would have to adopt all the bad ways of all the sovereign nation-states - because that's just how the EU is. Patriotism, jingoism, distrust of other EU members. It would create more nationalism not less.
- kelpie0
I completely agree with Nairn, btw, I'm not a nationalist - lately I have begun to lean toward the idea that our own nationhood might give us the kick we need to get some of that post-union achievement back though.
I have my doubts, I reckon this country is pretty fecked to be honest, for fundamental reasons.
- FrdmOfSpch0
ok kelpie, so i guess the EC Commisioner didnt say "The situation is unprecedented and therefore negotiations would be needed."
No body doubts Scotland would eventually get in as a member but the issue would be a tortuous one. Special exception would not be made for Scotland and an array of forced would be aligned against making it easier. Not least from coutries who are struggling with their own naitonalist movements.
And my example of Turkey was not comparing the two countries, it's highlighting the headaches the EU is having to deal with before it can consider parachuting Scotland in.
And I have a pretty solid understanding of the constitutional history of the United Kingdom thank you very much. And of many other European states. That's where YOU seem to lack adequate knowledge.
- paraselene0
The Spain thing is different, Spain is not made up of a genuine federal conglomerate of formerly sovereign states, they are 'just' regions (whether this is right or not is another question - as far as I am aware Iberia was never divided into kingdoms which match the current dissenting regions - the UK is a unique case)
kelpie
(Apr 24 07, 03:43):O
kelpie! you should know better!
- lowimpakt0
there's no need to start fighting over this.
can we call Gibson on this?
- FrdmOfSpch0
there's no need to start fighting over this.
can we call Gibson on this?
lowimpakt
(Apr 24 07, 04:28)hey, i'm chill man! seemed to have angered irked the scottish fella tho :/
- Nairn0
*anger irks
- kelpie0
yeah, you have actually - not because of any of the points you've made, but because your tone is incredibly condescending for someone who doesn't live here talking to someone who does - you also ignore sections of posts which don't fit up against you points. But whatever, you're entitled to your opinion.
and paraselene, I stand by every letter of that post - if you don't know what I meant by it, then that's cool, but its a question of technicality, not self determination, I was bringing up.
Catalonia is not the same as Scotland or Wales or Ireland. They have a claim, but a different one.
- paraselene0
hehe. i didn't have time to read the whole thread, just skimming here before i go into a meeting.
BUT, catalonia was absolutely it's own kingdom prior to the existence of the nation-state known as spain. and it was the most powerful kingdom on the mediterranean seaboard (with catalan being the most widely-spoken language on the mediterranean seaboard) for the duration of the midaeval period.
it's an OLDER bloody history, so people tend to forget about it. but the history of the amalgamation of catalunya and the pais vasco is as bloody, if not more so, than the amalgamation of the british kingdoms.