dutch vote
- Started
- Last post
- 80 Responses
- vb_0
so basically not many know what they were voting for? what was the media / newspaper doing before this referendum? was there a debate of the pros and cons? could people educate themself or not really?
rabattski
(Jun 2 05, 04:24)EXACTLY.
there was one woman on tv who said she voted no, because she did not know what to vote. but she blamed the govt. for spreading yes-propaganda instead of information that was neutral and showed pros AND cons.
while i still think that is a silly reason to vote NO i do have sympathy for that motivation.
- vb_0
why not, stewart?
- rabattski0
wow. that's actually so undutch janne. normally in such cases people are able to educate and/or inform themselves thru media and govt sponsored media. especially since the last referendum was like 200 years ago.
odd though that groenlinks now wants a debate about the eu (no idea why and what about) but it's the govt who should make sure the citizens are informed well.
very unique and interesting situation though.
that the french voted no don't surprise me at all. in germany there wasn't even a vote for it. it's already accepted.
- vb_0
yeah, well they released one informational paper/brochure after the other but they all were quite confusing and only told about the benefits and lacked many aspects of the constitution. there's been serious criticism on the how the info about the constitution was spread here.
and people felt belittled because of proper information, and that only fueled the fire for the NO camp imho.
it's a reall shame how things were handled here.
i think if there is another referendum about this in the future the national govt. should stay out of this. imho.
- vb_0
and people felt belittled because of THE LACK OF proper information, and that only fueled the fire for the NO camp imho.
- clerk0
we don't even get the opportunity to vote here in sweden, we'll just accept the consitution.
- rabattski0
weird.
dunno if the govt. should keep their fingers out. they should as in they shouldn't favour a side. but most people need to be informed or else they base their opinion on their neighbour or on shows like "gewoon jan smit". know what i mean?
still, very odd, very undutch.
the thing i laugh about hardest referendum wise is that holland can't have a referendum against the existence of the dutch kingdom. hypocrit. but off topic.
- stewart0
eh vb_
that has 'something' to do with my police record
- rabattski0
don't pick up the soap when stew's around :)
- vb_0
well the netherlands has gone completely bonkers anyway lately. esp. with the current govt.
at least in france the pm drew his conclusions and left. you won't ever see balkenellende do that.
btw. about the NO vote, if anyone has seen the more serious tv programmes such as NOVA and Buitenhof you would have seen that a lot of highly educated and profs (one in economics even) were on the NO-side.
so just don't blame it on the Dutch klootjesvolk!
;P
- vb_0
stew, you make me skeerd!
i hope it is not that bad though!
- rabattski0
not really blaming it on anyone in specific. however i didn't expect the more educated people vote against the eu law. why is that?
and yeah balkenende, he looks like harry potter which says enough really. i wish any govt. would be more like business. if you fuck up you quit or get fired.
- vb_0
"why is that?"
well there's as many reasons for it as there are lines in the whole constitution. for the economic expert the reason was mainly because regions depend on the EU funds too much while we still had not managed to make the EU as a whole a strong competitor on the world market. which is very true.
for instance, in Grøn they got new cycling-paths from EU funds while they could easily afford it themselves. it's an absolute waste of money and resources to first send that money to Brussels and then ask it back for silly things like that, we should be able to handle this ourselves and only fund the larger projects that amke a difference for the EU as a whole.
- rabattski0
nice pic stew.
so basically it's the existence of glitches which leads to a no vote? hmmm... ok. interesting, since glitches are just a temporary thing, stuff you have to go thru.
i mean, just like the fact that the whole eu board moves every 3 months between belgium and france due to some ridiculous rule w/ france causing millions and millions of costs yearly.
- vb_0
"so basically it's the existence of glitches which leads to a no vote? hmmm... ok. interesting, since glitches are just a temporary thing, stuff you have to go thru."
no, the whole misuse of funding and the bureaucratic trouble that comes with it is not just a 'glitch'..
it is a very fundamental issue.
- rabattski0
depends on how you look at it. see everything publically organized is ruled by bureaucracy. is the dutch govt. w/out funding mishaps and errors? no. just like any other country. see on that level there is no difference between a national govt and the eu govt, it's part of the process, kinderziektes. but since it's on a grander scale it's bigger and more obvious. and especially in the start up phase it's bound to happen more. but that's my opinion though. you should look at it more strategically and not tactical, short term.
- vb_0
well perhaps i was not making myself as clear as the economics prof did so well.
its this whole regional support vs. lack of overall strength issue that is the problem.
some other reknowned intellectuals here made a point about the political influence. when the us planned to invade iraq the eu did not make a firm statement towards the us. there's too many differences yet to impose this constitution on us..
i could go on and on..
- rabattski0
ok. i do think that i know where you're coming from. anyways you can't expect it to be perfect from the start right away? that's impossible. you will have discrepancies, issues, problems, etc. i don't think voting no will solve these problems, it'll only be worse and will take much longer to get there. i mean, if these are the reasons to vote note, imo, you are against the eu in general.
- vb_0
*sigh
i am not, paul. in fact i am strongly in favor of a strong united eu.
at this point we need to have a period in which the whole eu policy should be analysed firmly and on a broad scale, because one of the main reasons is the timing. i have said it before as well.
the whole of eu is in economical and political trouble in many ways, and yes i hear you say already 'its always been that way".. NO IT IS NOT.
sorry if i get emotional about this but the current political and economical status quo is a complete mess and we can not unite on the bases of chaos IMVFHO.
i can better stop here, because we end up assuming things based on misunderstanding.
i am ready to get angry again and we dont want that... :)
but remember, i am stronlgy in favor of the EU, that is why i voted no.
sometimes you have to be strict and angry towards your children, but only because you love them and want them to grow up as good people, not a bunch of chavs. ;)