arafat dies
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- toe-knee0
I dont think there are many books / newspaper articles / daily tv reports or documentarys about tfsmag though
;)
- silencer0
Only Saudi is between where I live and Palestine actually. It's fairly close.
- smellvetica0
good guy/bad guy?
- iLotion0
I always thought he looked like a friendly little gopher... I think that's how he's like to be remembered :)
- winter0
prolly twill. somehow leaders have the biggest effect on people either way.
which means that Max Weber theory about the Charisma, although deemed to be a 1800's fascist theory is right. i mean "left."
- Peter_R0
Shame this thread went the way it did. It would of been much worse without him. RIP big guy.
- silencer0
Word Peter_R.
- winter0
well if you respect the palestinian cause so much just shut down your computer, destroy your car, go for the mountains, get rid of everything that's perfectly useless like design or your sk8 board --- because your lifestyle is what's destroying palestina: it's the clutch they cannot get rid from; it's the world they always fell short from; it's what Arafat was fighting.
So you can RIP arafat as many times you can like but you'll never do their cause any good. words do not work for them; just actions.
- unfittoprint0
Rest in Peace, Rahman Abdul Rauf al-Qudwa al-Husseini.
"Palestine belongs to the Arabs as England belongs to the English" - Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.countercurrents.org/p…
- lilbabyarm0
it's all very simple actually to stop. America needs to stop funding israel. that's all that needs to happen. israel has way too much money. and they have been stealing land away fronm palesitinians for 50 year. ever since the creation of israel. 1 MILLION or so people were forceably transferred from their homes... thier lively hoods and they waited around in refuge camps for a good 10 - 20 years while the world ignored them...
but it's not just that, israel in fact funds settlers to go into the west bank and gaza under incredible military protection, and steal away chunks of land and blow up houses... 10,000 (!) to date. Imagine if your homes were getting torn down and you were forced to move... you'd be pissed too. The worst part is that israel controls the water rights and of course they dont break off the palestinians like they dfo the settlers...
- johnnyhashcraft0
respect Ahmed Massoud....do not forget real freedom fighters. Just dismiss the sad clown Arafat, achiever of nothing but his own obituary....his own version of a corrupt Star Wars
- danthon0
-unfittoprint
thank you for that article.
It puts a whole lot in perpective...
- laurus0
"Given the will, the Jew can refuse to be treated as the
outcast of the West, to be despised or patronized."yeah, right, tell it to my grandparent who arrested by eager DUTCH collabarators, sent to a GERMAN concentration camp in POLAND, escaped and were refused entry by the AMERICANS, continued to ISRAEL, were arrested by the BRITISH who sent them to a prison camp in Cyprus.
Go back where? Europeans fucked up the rest of the world and created conflicts in Palestine/Israel/Egypt/Syria, India and Pakistan.
Now they are resting their fat asses on laurels with all the riches that they robbed from the rest of the world and telling the rest of the world what's morally right or wrong.
I, my parents and my son were born in Israel. We have no where else to go. This is not a theoretical question. you are talking about people.
Sure, it sucks for the Palestinians. It also sucks that 3/4 of European Jews (a third of the world Jewry) were killed by Europeans and their property was robbed. For example, my father had no grandparents, no uncles or aunts, no cousins, and this is not rare with European Jewish decendants.
Right now there are Jews and Arabs in this area—fuck the justification—THIS NEEDS TO BE SOLVED.
The Palestinians can't get everything they want and neither can we.
Araft started the second Intifada when things were very close to being settled (no pun intended). If it wasn't for Arafat—Sharon would have never been elected. He gave ground to extremists on both sides, when most Israelies were willing to give up ALL the occupied territories. It's the best deal They could get—and even if not, the negotiations could have continued.
Many top Palestinian officials (yes, I know a couple and have spoken to them) feel the second intifada was the worst mistake ever.
Sure, There are many extremists in Israel, settlers, etc. But Arafat nourished them and made their camp strong when a solution was at hand.
And for that I have no respect. Nore will I feel any differently when Sharon dies.
- drop_shadow0
they should bury that fucker face down
- JazX0
one way or another he made history
- Kuz0
stop fighting. Tfsmag is entitled to his opinion.
But i ain't no pacifist, and i'm not down with all this masochistic turn the other cheek talk.
"Terrorism is the only weapon of the weak".
- Jean Paul SartreBack in the 70s, the Palestinians were a non-people. They didn't exist in international vocabulary. Israel had embarked on a project of genocide(and to a point still has) where it tried to erase the existence of Palestinians. It did this by denying there were such a people as Palestinians. That there was ever a country called Palestine. It was always Jews against the Arabs. The Palestinians were expected to drift into and dissapear into the populations of Egypt and Jordan and Syria etc... fuck off back to Mecca where they come from etc... Even to this day Israel refers to Palestinians in its own borders as Israeli Arabs - not Palestinians.
The Palestinians have been in a struggle for the very survival of their people from extinction. In the 50s it was the Egyptians and Syria and other countries that went to war against Israel. When Israel invaded its neighbours in 1967 again it invaded Jordan and Syria and Egypt and Lebanon. When those countries declared war on Israel trying to regain the land Israel had stolen - again the Palestinians were completely left out of the loop. And then when those countries started making peace with Israel - they did it without regard or consent with the Palestinians. Palestinians had been completely ignored until the 70s.
The Palestinians a nation of refugees. Lower than the American negro. Helpless by-standers to history who had events thrust upon them. Expelled from their own homes.
Until they started hi-jacking and setting off bombs, during the 1970s noone even knew they existed. No one even knew there was such a thing as a Palestinian cause. In the West it was alwasy poor helpless Israel being bullied by its Arab neighbours. The Palestinians have throughout the 20th century been and continue to be an irrelevance.
It wasn't until people like Yasser Arrafat stood up and gave them the option of the gun and the olive branch that the world was shocked into attention. Culminating in the Munich Olympics.
This ain't South Africa where a minority is exploiting a majority and you can have a figure like Mandela emerging. Or the minorty British controlling the Indians where Gandhi emerged. The Indians and Africans weren't going no where. The Palestinians however could dissapear out of all existence and no-one would bat an eyelid. And no-one did
The Black Panthers said "Revolution is violent. If you're afraid of violence, then you are afraid of revolution." Not that i agree with their sentiments entirely, but fuck it. They are fighting for justice. Making Arafat out to be just another world leader like Bush etc.. is pretty ignorant. Arafat was a revolutionary fighting for justice. The blood of innocent Israeli's is on the hand of Israel itself. Like the Black Panthers' said - "If you push a panther into a corner, it will lash out and attack you".
It is interesting to note that once the PLA had achieved recognition and shown the world that the problems of the middle east aren't abotu Israel's relationship with it's neighbours - BUT THE EXISTENCE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE - that in 1988 Araffat denounce terrorism.
So what if following 2001 he did nothing to stop Hamas and others sending suicide bombers? Sharon asked for it.
Not that Arafat was a great leader. But he was fighting for justice and he gained recognition for his people. So respect and RIP.
And laurus - all i'm saying, is share the land. You have as much right to live there as the Palestinians - NO MORE. Those terrirtories Israel holds can not be the exclusive property of the Jewish diaspora.
and winter - what the fuck u on mate?
- tdk0
rip
- laurus0
I know a lot of you are going to hate me for bumping this back up.
Kuz,
I appreciate your sentiment, but feel like you have a few things mixed up.
Most Jewish lands before 1948 were legally bought.
The United Nations ruled (47) that the country will be divided into a Jewish entity and a palestinian entity.
The Arab nation—then seeing itself as one entity, not Palestinians Jordanians, etc. started a war in which 7 arab countries and the Palestinians tried to get hold of all the area. They lost some territorries during that war, as did the Israelies (for example, the Jewish quarter in Jerusalem remained in Jordanian hands).
The palestinian bombimgs and terror against civilians started in the 50s, before the 6 day war. They were living under Egyptian and Jordanian rule at the time. In one palestinian uprising, the Jordanian kings killed 1200 Palestinians in 1 day (Black September).
So it didn't start after the occupation.
All this does not really matter. What matters is not the history, but what can be done now.
What you are suggesting means the end of Jewish life in Israel, because Muslims never (look at all their countries) show much tolerence towrd minorities (look at the kopts in Egypt, the curds in Iraq and Iran or what the Taliban did to the Hindus.
Why can you accept other nations having countries of their own (like completely Arab countries) and are not willing to accept a Jewish country?
Sure, in an Ideal world I wouldn't care if my prime-minister would be Muslim or Christian or in the first church of applied scientolgy. I prefer an atheist, anyway.
Having said that, the Palestinians are completely right to fight against the settlements. I am appalled that my country is backing these people. However, Arafat has done more for them than what the most right-wing religious extremist could have wished for. He was Sharon's best friend.
You say he worked for his people, but many Palestinians admit off-camera that maybe some off the billions that he put aside making him the 8th richest man in the world, could have been put to use in the poverty-struck streets, schools and hospitals of Gaza.
He is like Bush and not like Che becuse he did what he did for himself and for money and power—Just as Bin Laden is doing.
His wife, living in Paris, is now getting a stipend of 20 million Dollars a year. How many mouths could that feed? I don't think Che would have done quite the same.
- unfittoprint0
that sounds like a sea of roses but Israel itself was implemented using the same techniques of , well, terror, that the PLO would use 20 years after.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin…
ie. David King hotel bombing in 1948 by the Irgun Tsvai-Leum whose David Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin wiould become prime ministers of Israel years after.
- vespa0
it's an interesting discussion and refreshing to hear other viewpoints than those i get through my normal channels. commendable that you guys are discussing rather than shouting at each other.