are CSS layouts BS?
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- cvirus
I'm beginning to think so. A great concept, in theory and for the future, but hard to convince clients to go that route when they see their site looking like crap in older browsers...and they're not always thrilled when your response is "upgrade your browser". Plus, sooooo many hacks to make it show up the way you've intended on each browser.
Opinions? I feel like I'm wasting my time with it. I recently set up a CSS layout site and *every* browser displays it differently... http://www.petertrumbullcrellin.… . Now I have to spend the next month figuring out all of the hacks to keep margins from collapsing and have it look ok in browser X.X . I had to give it a set height because the nested divs won't display backgrounds in Firefox if I don't and having a set height is a really bad idea. I am annoyed. Even the hackiest, most well done CSS sites have their issues.
Agree/Disagree? Or am I being thick-headed? Just seems like it's not worth the time and energy at this point unless you're willing to have 1000 hacks and javascript workarounds.
- codogg0
I wouldnt waste the time with the site yor working...no amount of css can help that.....
However, I have found CSS to be one of the most amazing tools available to web designers. In the "old days" this type of layout with HTML was next to impossible....And the flexibility...cmon!
I'd say, since its friday at about 5:35pm, I'm gettin out of th eoffice.....
- cvirus0
what type of layout is impossible with HTML?
- sherman0
css is a tool to help build upon the limitations of html.
love it, live it, use it wisely as it can be very powerful.
- mrdobolina0
I basically just use it for text and divs, can truss it.
safari, firefox and IE all render everything else differently.
- grafholic0
css keeps me organized...kudos to css.
- mrdobolina0
and all the css dudes always say, 'get a compliant browser', cant tell a client that, their clients have no idea what a 'compliant browser' is.
- sherman0
some people use it to build entire sites, i just think they have too much time on their hands.
- mrdobolina0
I started using css when clients told me, the text is too small. change the style sheet and it's fixed. I havent really used it for layout too much. Although when I trying to layout my friday jams site and had an swf inside of a div, it looked fucked on safari and different on firefox while it looked fine on IE. too much dicking around for me.
- welded0
If you do it right, CSS is a great thing.
- versa0
i really enjoy it because most of my clients don't need their sites to look good in IE 5 on a MAC and in Nutscrape 4.0, and i am choosing smaller web projects these days
i only use CSS now for building web sites, except for flash, and agree that it really keeps me organized
it also can do things for a layout that tabular based code can't, and thus has opened new doors for me with my design approach
about to launch this which is all css driven
- Anarchitect0
evolve or die.
and sleep with your clients.
- abizzyman0
boz taught me a valuable lesson when it comes to text in css...
... users can simply goto the 'view' menu on a number of browswers and increase the size of the screen text which can move alot of things around and kill the design...
... so make sure you use the logical property when creating divs to avoid design trainwrecks when the old folks or near-blind people start blowing out the fonts.
... just a thought.
- cvirus0
thank you sherman and mr. bob dobolina for answering and understanding where i'm coming from...it just doesn't seem practical to do whole CSS -only site layouts at this point, especially with margins/padding. I use CSS to some degree on every site, but if you are building a site under a tight deadline, there are just too many unknown variables.
and "codogg", i wasn't looking for a critique and actually i was just trying to point out that the site i did was pretty basic (it's just really a photo album for my client to update his work through a custom PHP CMS)...something I could have easily set up with tables or completely in flash (as I did in version 1)...but is a real pain to set up in CSS and not really worth the time in the "real world"...especially if you don't have an army of programmers/testers at your disposal.
i just wanted to poll the community and see what they thought.
- sherman0
goodluck with it
- gabriel_pc0
the more you use it the less of a pain it will be, the same goes for all new technology...
- seantdk0
yes
- dcdomain0
I still consider myself a NOOB in CSS, but I've found that... if I want to build a site that dynamically resizes portions of it based on the content, moving other data around it, I think I might go back to tables. I've been pulling my hair out the last two weeks working with a site, jumping back and forth from all divs to tables... in the end, I question if it's worth it.
Should I just go CSS, and set a fixed size, created a div with a scroll bar, or should I just go with a table and have the entire page have a scroll bar...
- skelly_b0
why do you think it is an all or nothing deal? we are in a time of transition and we will be for several more years.
just because you can't accomplish a pure 'strict' format with no tables doesn't mean you should be bonehead with a crazy table structure and spacer gifs. trust me once you actually understand how valid markup and style sheets work you will realize why it is the far superior method of doing things.
technically using a table for layout purposes is a hack, so pick the lesser of two evils and remember your goal is to deliver a website that fulfills your clients goals. your client doesn't care how you wrote your code just as long as does what they want it to do. those requirements should also be outlined before you do any work in contract that you both find agreeable.
good luck.
- ********0
you'll or whoever has to update the site in the future will WISH they used CSS.
CSS is new to you so you are running into a few complications..
There are a million ways it benefits over HTML (google it) if you can't understand that yet you are not ready for it... study up and expierment...good luck.
- abstrakt0
alright, here's my take.
Writing standards compliant non-table-layout code is like prepairing for the 2000 time changeover. Like somehow in the next few months or years, older HTML code isn't going to work anymore and standards compliant code will prevail. That just isn't true. Other excuses for CSS layouts are that disabled people can use them better and that people on small mobile devices can view them (although you can do a mobile version just fine with a tabled layout.) Now, lets think about this logic. Disabled people and people on mobile devices make up a TINY fraction of the visitors to a website, and the majority of the sites using CSS layouts won't have ANY disabled visitors, unless by accident. Wired.com and other larger sites are exceptions. So, here's the logic: The site will work fine for disabled people and people on mobile devices (which makes up less than .001 percent of visitors, unless you cater to those people), however older browsers like Netscape 4 (which make up about 3-4% of visitors) won't be supported, other than a basic text version of the site. So, in order to support .001 percent of your visitors, you're willing to give up a GUI for 3-4% of your users. Where's the logic in this? CSS+HTML is God's gift to the web. Style sheets save countless hours wasted updating pages. Plus the other cool CSS features like different style sheets for printing, mobile devices, etc. But that doesn't mean you should stop using tables all together. Basically, what I'm saying is the web isn't ready for this. There's too many browsers. What if a different version of MacOS or Windows came out every few months, and the previous software didn't work quite right after each update? Think software developers would create a version for each version of the OS? Most likely not. Now what if you could code your application a special way in that it will be almost guaranteed to work great in all previous versions, plus all future versions? Think about it.
And if you're wondering, I have coded 100% standards compliant websites, with no tables.