<- Too Funny
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- ********0
seriously_
dsmith7, you make some valid points. I don't believe it is a matter of respect or disrespect. That is not relevant. It's about what can be learned from graphic design to be implemented in webdesign; just as there were usability experts/architects in the pre-webdesign era teaching us a lot still.
Despite the fact there is a lot of cut'n'pasting going on, I think design for digital communication will be considered a unique craft on the long run, and it just needs to grow/mature. There is just a lot of (needless) bitching on the whole concept of cut'n'paste culture in design, but that is just inherent to the medium. There is no such thing as good or bad until we see where it led to...and that might still take a pretty long while.
Discussions on this however are very valuable, and we can indeed learn a lot from the "old" designers.
I for instance find myself inspired by the works of Josef Muller-Brockmann amongst many others.
After all: both graphic and new media design need to communicate to their (target) audience.
They are and will be very closely related diciplines.
- ********0
- neeko0
somewhat off topic, but in response to what someone said about old designers sucking at web deisgn:
i dont think its fair to judge "older" web designers, because at this point in the web's history, anyone over 40 was probably established in another career, and had a well rounded life when the web came out, and suddenly they had to learn a whole new field... and compete with the fields pioneers, who were working 18 hour days to become elite in their field. they had noone to learn from either, no established schools, etc, etc. (im sure this topic has been touched on many times before)
give this generation (say, ~16-36) time to age and i think you'll start seeing more trendsetting, leading 40+ web designers.
- IRNlun60
With the ever evolving capabilities of new browsers, we (in my opinion) are reaching the point where content is no longer king. At least not without back up. In the age of 10 second attention spans, attracting attention takes more than just plain text on a white background.(or rainbow colored sites)
There is some good content on that site. Would look better with a nice new book cover.
- neeko0
"...content is no longer king"
i disagree. i think thats very much a designers opinion... and narrow-minded.
good design is one thing, but i dont want eye candy on my news sites... when i go to see what movies are playing in town, a white background with ginat verdana font suits me fine...
i have very few designer friends, and none of them even take time to consider if a website "looks cool". they only care about finding the information there looking for. even artists, musicians anyway, dont often grasp the whole "web design as art" concept... far less so than even a magazine layout.
so i think it will be a long time yet til content isnt king on the internet.
i could argue either side of this argument, but honestly, to my knowledge, the cover of a book has yet to detract from the reading experience. it may have prevented me from buying the book though.
- chilaquil0
Well, for whatever the reason may be (neeko the reason you give is probably right) it's still true, and no one seems to deny it. I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's what they are: exceptions.
Now I find this funny... this thread started because of the http://www.wpdfd.com link on the PBS. And in that MKD site here (another awful site) I found this quote from Paul Rand:
" You do not mix type faces. It's stupid. That is mannerism, trendy stuff, doing it because someone else is doing it. The only reason to do it. "
Hmm... the irony.
And then as far as the old "masters" I have my favorites as well, but Paul Rand has never been one of them. I've never really understood what the big deal about that guy has been. Some of his work in my opinion is outright borderline bad. I mean look at that IBM logo. Look at those clunky looking serifs... look at the spacing between the letters. And remember that the original version didn't have the lines running through it to lighten it up. I mean, I've seen better shit from junior designers.
The one thing I have to admit, is that he was very good at promoting himself and making everybody else think he was a genius. He was a good self marketer and he positioned himself where nobody else had tried to do it at that time.Saul Bass was MUCH better and far more versatile.
- jking760
chilaquil, thems is fightin' words. i think people go ape shit over Rand, cause he was a brilliant communicator, we're not talking strictly about Typography, maybe Weingart, but Rand brought commication via print to another level, and AGAIN, graphic design is visual communication.
- chilaquil0
Put them dukes up...
Just what do these communicate to you?:
http://www.dlsdesign.com/paul_ra…The ABC one is probably the most decent out of the lot.
Take any bad logo, and bombard the shit out of people with it, write a few books about them, and people eventually, will start to think they're good. Just because they're widely recognized brands, doesn't mean they're necessarily good. Look at the AOL logo for crying out loud. It's widely recognized by now, but its complete shit.
I don't think Rands work is "complete shit" either, but he is definietly over rated. I've read a couple of his books, and frankly I didn't think much of him as a theorist either.
He WAS brilliant with self promotion and public relations though.
- jking760
"The ABC one is probably the most decent out of the lot."
haha, hehe.
the fact that some of his marks have endured over a half century is proof to their graphic prowess. maybe i've been brainwashed into thinking he's a legend... wait no, he is. i drive by like what, 20 UPS trucks every day, and the mark is still so striking, please!
- christo0
wdpfd website is beautiful to me. I love the design, so old its new. yeah the colors are wild but I wouldnt have it any other way. Its clean, it has terrific content, and for "indesigned" it is- it stands out amoung most of the supposed "designed" site out there. To me- most design trends get stale quick- all show no go- this site can hold its own through all the passing trends.... love it!!!
- IRNlun60
neeko, you assume that I mean eye candy to make content more appealing. I do agree with what you are saying. But you can't deny the fact that if your content is hard to find and the navigation is confusing your audience will not spend more than 5 mintues to find what they are looking for.
Good content is one one thing. Enticing the viewer to find it and reading it is another.
Like you said, "the cover of a book has yet to detract from the reading experience. it may have prevented me from buying the book though."
- ********0
my g...
some folks are lowering the level of debate again, noone here had the intention to 'disrespect' any established graphic/webdesigner..they all have their place and expertise. Simple thing is: the debate and the development of webdesign as a whole new craft in the field of communication is only in his childhood imo. "10 second time span for getting attention" is very subjective to the sites unique quality of information it brings. If it is to sell a product, yes, boom, hit them in the face with impressive flash, but, if it's informational value is unique in a non-commercial way, for instance a medical site storing data of thousands of diagnoses, diseases and possible cures, usability/accessibility of the site prevails over eyecandy.
- dsmith70
I really value these intellectual discussions and debates like this. We should have a debate club for design.
I'll bring the cookies!
- chilaquil0
I'll bring the spiked punch...
- ********0
d7smith, I agree
I actually have this crazy idea that this section was designed for that purpose...
oh well.
silly me!
:P
- dsmith70
4cy you are absolutely correct - these forums are to be used for intellectual debate but there is nothing more fulfilling then being able to sit across from you at an oversized oak table and wave my finger profusely while muttering obscenities about Paul Rand and Jakob Nielsen!
haha! Now that would be a gas!
- ********0
I am in shock, for even the most profound intellectuals in the world of design would never, ever, attempt to name Jakob Nielsen and Paul Rand in one sentence!
Well, bless yourself my hero in debate, you just subversed the establishment and I topped it by mentioning Jakob first.
We just wrote history.
And it is just the beginning, compadre!
Vive la Revolucion!
- dsmith70
I think we should call ourselves the Graphic Guerillas! Actually that sounds more like a group of Graphic Designers using their skills as Guerilla Warfare against brainwashing Media! Ahhh, I can imagine it now. I can almost smell the mounting spray and foamcore!
Viva La Revolucion! Viva La Resistance! Viva Lissitzky!
- ********0
we shall "lay out" our future!
A lot of Pantone032 will be shed..
All hail the crest, for we shall force our manifest upon you! Silk screenprinted in FetteFraktur, diecut in strict absolute dimensions!!!
hasta la victoria siempre!
mwuhahahahaaaaa!!!!