arafat dies
Out of context: Reply #83
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laurus
I disagree with you massively. But since you bring history up i have to adress it.
You bring up a couple of interesting points. Firstly that Muslims are incapable of living alongside minorities. This is the kind of distortions that are being thown around today in order to simplify the myriad of conflicts affecting the post-colonial post-cold war post-globalisation world. I could recount many many examples of Muslim rulers living peacefully alongside other religious minorities throughout their 1500year history. From Akbar in India who had Hindu priests as advisers to the Mongol Khans. I could go on for ever talking about that stuff.
Anyway, I can understand your own insecurity living as Jew in a sea of Arabs so I'll just mention something about that.. The first Zionist congress took place in 1896 in Switzerland following the growing wave of anti-semitism in Europe. By 1897 thousands of European Jews started settling in Palestine. They lived alongside about a million Arab residents in what was then part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. A second wave of about 40,000 immigrants arrived in the region between 1904 and 1914. The Muslim rulers of Turkey oversaw this immigration and allowed it. So i don't know where you get this idea of Muslims are incapable of tolerating minorities when the first Jewish settlers in Palestine obviously felt that the Arabs had a much more tolerant society than the Europeans (and if you check history this is very much the case for over a thousand years).
Indeed Arabs and Jews had been living alongside each other for centuries. There were conflicts, and sectarian violence, not least perpetrated by the Jews against the arab (as in the 14th century when Mongolians invaded Persia and the Persian Jews conspired with them to exterminate the Muslims and establish a Jewish kingdom). But anyway, shit happens., and the blame game gets noone anywhere.
Then world war 1 happened, Britain destroyed the Turkish Empire and took over all the Middle East, including Palestine. The British Foreign Minister Arthur Balfour committed Britain to work towards the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. It became known as the Balfour Declaration. This was cynical anti-Sematic attempt to get rid of the Jews in Europe and dump them in Palestine.
I dont know how you can justify this and think this was a good idea. If Balfour was that concerned about Jews in Europe, then why not say "hey, Jews, come to Britain, we are tolerant". Anyway The Zionist project of the 1920s and 1930s saw hundreds of thousands of Jews emigrating to Palestine, provoking unrest in the Arab community. Arab discontent exploded into a general strike in 1936. By this time, the militant Zionist group Irgun Zvai Leumi was orchestrating attacks on Palestinian and British targets with the aim of "liberating" Palestine and Transjordan (modern-day Jordan) by force .
In July 1937, Britain, recommended partitioning the land into a Jewish state and an Arab one.
Palestinians rejected this and demanded an end to immigration and the safeguarding of a single unified state with protection of minority rights. Violent opposition continued until 1938 when it was crushed with reinforcements from the UK.
You might be interested to know how many Jews living in Jersualem and throughout the Arab world were against the creatiion of Israel. I read a book by an Iraqi Jew who was forced to leave Iraq - think it was Yaov Peled. How European Jews forced Israel onto Arab Jews who were assimilated into Arab populations for centuries and were successful businessmen etc.. and how he and his parents resented the fact that they were forced to move into Israel and blames not the Arabs, but the European Zionists for their predicament.
I dont know where you get the idea that most Jewish lands before 1948 were legally bought - you must have an interesting idea of legality which encompasses the Brisih Empire as a legal entitiy.
And yes the Arabs saw themselves as one people, but what I was saying is that the Palestinians who had been made refugees following the creation of Israel were subsumed into this Arab identitiy and their individual needs were ignored. And it wasn't until the 1970s that the Palestinians as a seperate people began to be recognised. Regardless of the fact that the Palestinians had been fighting alongside other Arabs against Israel during the 50s, and had been causing unrest in Jordan during that time. The point I was making was that by the beginning of the 70s they had all but been ignored and had to fight for recognition during that period. Which is where the Munich Olympics and the plane hi-jackings come in. That was their purpose. They were unrecognised until they made themselves recognised.
And this whole Muslim intolerance crap. I dont know where to begin with that, and it really pisses me off when people start throwing this shit around. Firstly the Kurds in Iraq happen to be Muslim as well. Secondly you're taking examples of Islamic extremism and tarring the whole 1.5billion muslims in the world with the same brush. Thirdly the Palestinians are a secular bunch, the PLO has many Chrisitians in it's leadership - the Al Aqsa martyrs brigade is a secular group that has had some Christian suicide bombers. Thirdly Iraq (was), Syria, Lebanon are SECULAR countries with Muslim majorities. Fourthly Muslims aren't the only people to oppress minorities Think about the Tamil in Sri Lanka, and well loads more across the word i cant be bothere mentioning. Fifthly, Islamic extremism has exploded over the last few years, but , as I wrote in a previous post, it's the fault of Israel for declaring an exclusively Jewish state in the heart of the Muslim world - which reminds people of that region too much of the crusades of the middle ages. Not to mention the way the United States promoted and played extremism against the Soviets throughout the Middle East and Afghanistan and directly led to the growth of ultra-orthodox Islam.
Anyway, right now there are many many mlitant muslims who want to drive out all jews from Israel - as there are many many Jews who would want to drive out all Arabs/Muslims out of the whole of Transjordan and send em back to Mecca and reestablish Solomon's empire. But then you have to deal with these problems in a grown up way. Many muslim countries are dealing with extremists trying to overthrow their governements, like Pakistan, and the, Malaysia, and others - but you don't see them giving out collective punishment and saying "we can't live with a single one of these people". It is Israel's responsibility, as the ruler/opressor, to foster an atmophere of understanding and to allow Palestinians the option to live peacefully alongside Jews by returning their dignity in a secular state that recognises more than one group of people share that land. And deal with the terrorists when those problems arise. How different things would be in northern ireland if Britain treated the catholics there how Israel has been treating the Palestinians.
Also, the problem is, as unfit's post on Mahatma Ghandi states, that if you're born in Portugal, and you're a Jew or a Christian, a gypsy or a homosexual - you're still portugeuse. Why you think, just cos you're a minority you have to take over someone elses country and make them homeless is beyond me.
Anyway i'm sick of talking about Arafat. He had major flaws - and he is NOT the 8th riches man in the world. A lot of mud is being thrown at him, some true some not. But we have a difference of perspective and i'm willing to forgive him a lot . So whatever. And I never called him Che.