Intellectual Dark Web
Intellectual Dark Web
Out of context: Reply #83
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- Morning_star-3
If you get a moment, have a listen to this. Just the first 10 minutes, where Harris explains how he, Peterson and Murray are being blamed for the recent massacre in Christchurch.
It's astonishing.
- tho isn't Sam Harris a leftist meditating intellectual?inteliboy
- Add 'Athiest' to that and i think that's accurate.Morning_star
- i'm hung up on the part where biometrics are necessary for Twitter ffs.MrAbominable
- Sam Harris, the real victim of the massacreyuekit
- Honestly I like Harris alright, but I also like Greenwald and Mehdi Hassan. I don't think he is being fair in describing them as bad faith actors. They justyuekit
- happen to have a view a different view of Islam. Perhaps one lesson of a tragedy like this is that people should try to be a little less absolutist in theiryuekit
- views, particularly when it comes to topics where you are generalizing about large groups of people.yuekit
- Have you read Murray's book?Fax_Benson
- I can't find a lot of sympathy for Murray - although he's whining for it again in the Spectator.Fax_Benson
- Out of curiosity I went and read the Intercept articles that Harris was complaining about. They actually didn't blame him for the shooting. Theyyuekit
- simply mentioned him briefly (one sentence in each article) as one of many people who have contributed to a hysteria against Muslims as a whole.yuekit
- If the journalist wasn't trying to make a connection or promoting guilt by association the why mention Harris et al at all? That's 'bad faith' if you ask me.Morning_star
- I don't see how it's bad faith, it's just their opinion. Should it be off limits for them to give their opinion that there is too much blanket criticism ofyuekit
- Muslims, and to name specific people who are engaged in this? Seems like a perfectly legitimate topic for discussion in light of what happened.yuekit
- I'd agree if it wasn't such a low blow. The articles title is "Politicians and Pundits Must Stop Their Anti-Muslim Rhetoric". Harris etc don't criticise...Morning_star
- ...Islam. As i've mentioned before, opinion and discussion of ideas is fantastic, when you start to criticise people it's not helpful.Morning_star
- Amend: "Harris etc don't criticise Muslims they criticise islam."Morning_star
- OK but if people buy into this view of Islam as an existential threat to Western civilization, do you really expect them to take a tolerant view of individualyuekit
- Muslims? I think you may be expecting a level of nuance that does not exist, particularly in the kind of people who are drawn to these topics.yuekit
- I think, especially with Harris, that they are perfectly capable, and go to great lengths to make it clear that they talk about Ideas, not people. We have to..Morning_star
- ...be able to talk about the ideas, the policies, the ideologies and this is what the IDW do.Morning_star
- they should therefore be able to discuss the idea that people can and do use their legitimate discussions as justification for extreme behaviourFax_Benson
- You're making it sound like a completely neutral forum for ideas. When in reality there is a distinct slant towards anti-Islam views, anti-immigrant views.yuekit
- Open discussion is a great thing of course, including ideas that are deemed "off limits." But when you consistently feature people who mass generalize aboutyuekit
- an entire religion, who say we're being overrun by immigrants, Western civilization is under threat etc, that goes way beyond just having an open-minded debate.yuekit
- @Fax Are you suggesting we shouldn't talk about 'difficult' subjects?
@Yuekit. You hear what you want to hear.Morning_star - what? No, I'm saying Murray in particular is happy to discuss any subject until it becomes difficult for him.Fax_Benson
- he can't just duck out now. he has a responsibility to discuss how and why his book has become a such a crutch for these people.Fax_Benson
- Sorry, misunderstood. I agree.Morning_star
- Morning_star, just one example...Lauren Southern who is the proponent of this "great replacement" theory about how whites are being wiped out by immigrantsyuekit
- is given a positive and sympathetic interview on Dave Rubin's show. The interview currently has about half a million views on YouTube.yuekit
- The New Zealand killer's manifesto is literally titled the exact same thing and about the same conspiracy theory.yuekit
- So.Morning_star
- Now who is this chick, is she some kind of intellectual? No she's a 23 year old who managed to become a mini celebrity promoting these far right theories.yuekit
- I guess you're against free speech and platforms for idiots to broadcast their obviously flawed ideas.Morning_star
- Really has nothing to do with free speech, it's more of an editorial decision about who you're going to have on your show and how their ideas are presentedyuekit
- (completely uncritically in this case -- and comments to the video are 99% positive).yuekit
- I'm listening to it now. All she seems to do is repeats the 'web facts' that support her fears. Like you.Morning_star
- Hmmm so your response to me pointing this out is that I'm against free speech and I'm afraid? lol.yuekit
- My point is that you can't on one hand pose as this high-minded debating society while again and again featuring people like this. Bit of a disconnect there.yuekit
- Who's posing as a high-minded debating society? And you say 'people like this', people like what? You exaggerate their political tendencies to the point of...Morning_star
- ...of untruth. If i believed everything you suggest then these people are all members of the Nazi party.Morning_star
- Didn't say Nazi. But I think it's fair to say there's a big far right movement out there spreading hysteria and fanatical views about immigrants and Muslims.yuekit
- I mean we should be able to agree on this basic fact by now right? I'm not saying they are all equally extreme or should be banned, but surely when you haveyuekit
- people expressing the same worldview as the guests you featured on your show committing mass murders, it's time for a little critical self-examination?yuekit
- I wouldn't agree with that at all. I think the hysteria is with the far left who are labelling everyone slightly right of centre as far right.Morning_star
- I dunno man...when people talk about "the death of Europe" and "the collapse of Western civilization" that seems pretty hysterical to me.yuekit
- If you take titles of books as the max resolution of someones extensive and nuanced opinion then i guess you're right. I suggest you're doing yourself no...Morning_star
- ...favours by having such a dishonest interpretation. If you can't be bothered to step out of the echo chamber and dig a little deeper, I think you're a fool.Morning_star
- How it is dishonest? Sam Harris chose to title his latest podcast with Douglas Murray "Is this the End of Europe?" Harris starts off by referring to "the likelyyuekit
- destruction of Europe." I didn't make this up, they really do talk in these apocalyptic terms. And this is very common language among the anti-immigrant crowd.yuekit
- That is not to say there is no nuance to their argument. But being able to talk at length about a topic does not excuse you from reaching such a hyperbolicyuekit
- conclusion when it is not supported by the evidence. Europe survived two world wars, I'm pretty sure it will survive the current wave of immigration.yuekit
- europe also survived the plague without vaccines. how is that an argument?Gnash
- You're just making my point for me Gnash. Europe has survived plague, war, actually being conquered by Muslims, communism, more wars, etc. The idea that it'syuekit
- doomed because of some demographic changes or issues assimilating immigrants seems a little silly in comparison.yuekit
- I get that. I wasn't suggesting that immigration effects were akin to the plague, though.Gnash
- only the general posit that being able to resit catastrophic adversity is argument against examining a topic that may not have similar outcomesGnash
- Not an argument against discussing it, just an argument against framing it in these extreme terms that reinforce the worldview of the far right.yuekit
- ya, the hyperbole gets in the wayGnash