Politics
Politics
Out of context: Reply #20480
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- bliznutty0
With the rise of democracy,
the identification of the State with society has
been redoubled, until it is common to hear sentiments
expressed which violate virtually every
tenet of reason and commonsense such as, “we
are the government.” The useful collective term
“we” has enabled an ideological camouflage to
be thrown over the reality of political life. If “we
are the government,” then anything a government
does to an individual is not only just and
untyrannical but also “voluntary” on the part of
the individual concerned. If the government
has incurred a huge public debt which must
be paid by taxing one group for the benefit of
another, this reality of burden is obscured by
saying that “we owe it to ourselves”; if the government
conscripts a man, or throws him into
jail for dissident opinion, then he is “doing it
to himself” and, therefore, nothing untoward
has occurred. Under this reasoning, any Jews
murdered by the Nazi government were not
murdered; instead, they must have “committed
suicide,” since they were the government
(which was democratically chosen), and, therefore,
anything the government did to them was
voluntary on their part. One would not think
it necessary to belabor this point, and yet the
overwhelming bulk of the people hold this fallacy
to a greater or lesser degree.- Murray N. Rothbard
Anatomy of the StateI only quote this because it is more important to understand what the state is before just going along with it and getting caught up in elections or what have you...
- I've read a bit of his stuff, although, I'll be honest, all the 'godfather of libertarianism' stuff put me off slightly.Fax_Benson
- the late James Brown is the only godfather that has ever existedbliznutty
- always sounded as though he could be Ayn Rand's affable uncleFax_Benson
- I like Rothbard a lot. He labels me as a "romantic". I must admit that it is quite a compliment!bliznutty
- Ultimately it is voluntary because you always have the option to leave...expatriation... renouncing citizenship is everyone's choice in a free society.yuekit
- Wouldn't that be most true to the philosophy of voluntarism, if you don't like living under "the state" just go start your own thing somewhere.yuekit
- yuekit i believe you are holding some serious fallacies and contradictions to your logic.bliznutty
- I dunno man, seems to me if you think the system is so bad and oppressive and you have the option to leave you would take it.yuekit
- And yet not only did they not do that, Rothbard worked for a public university while Ayn Rand died on welfare.yuekit
- yuekit there is no argument or rebuttal from me if you actually believe the state is a voluntary institution - which clearly you do. you've left me bewilderedbliznutty
- yuekit that is the problem with democratic rule that ignores individual rights. technically slavery was ok and the north should have left. think rothbard is say********
- ing all action under the retext of collectivism is a logical fallacy becuase there is no such thing, only individuals. and the logical fallacy only allow you to********
- ... the logical fallacy is how those in charge convince you to think you're doing right by them. ayn rand was also correct in this thinking********
- and of course how they died or personal lives don't change the logic. thats just another type of fallacy********
- If people want to voluntarily participate in a collectivist system that doesn't violate libertarian or anarchist philosophy right?yuekit
- That's all I'm saying, the people who want to live under the current system should be allowed to do so, while the ones who don't should just leave.yuekit
- If you feel the state is holding you back so much, go build a better system and if it actually works maybe other people will be convinced.yuekit
- can u name a system that doesn't violate popular principles of such camps? ... i know its illogical for a collectivist system to exist and not violate such idea********
- which is why your proposition is a false stance. and holds no merit. Might as well suggest fucking unicorns********
- yuekit you are absolutely missing the logic and point of the quote. you are still seeing the collectivist system as a thing. its not********
- have u ever questioned u have been educated incorrectly? that your principles hold no logical water? that your belief might be as similar as a christian in god?********
- u seem smarter than your results********
- No one is saying collectivist, go start your own voluntarist, non-collectivist thing if that's what you want.yuekit
- It's funny that you have such a problem with this notion of opting out of the system, it's one that a lot of libertarians share going back to Atlas Shrugged.yuekit
- When people whether right wing or left talk endlessly about how they have the solutions, but never bother putting their ideas into practice, I thinkyuekit
- it's justified to be skeptical. You can "prove" anything with abstract arguments, but that doesn't mean it will work in the real world.yuekit
- so the north who didn't like slavery should have opted out and went to canada? maybe im misunderstanding********
- No what I'm saying is that participating in modern society...paying taxes, receiving welfare etc...is all voluntary. You have the choice to leave if you want.yuekit
- Slaves didn't have that choice. If they tried to run away they would have been hanged or worse.yuekit
- You may not realize it, but you can walk down to a government office tomorrow, pay a fine, file some paperwork and you will be off the hook for paying taxes foryuekit
- the rest of your life. You will just need to find somewhere else to go :)yuekit
- im not talking about the slaves. Im talking about those against slavery. It was legal than. The people who didnt like it could have left.********
- it sounds like your giving a free pass to any and all rules made by popular majority. of course im sure ones that weren in your favor youd sign a different tune********
- and the whole go somewhere else is a terrible argument, everyone knows earth is pretty booked up. not to mention the costs. perhaps gov should pay transition********
- expense along with free college and every other thing to make adults back into irresponsible and dependent children.********
- The country had already voted against slavery by electing Lincoln. So yeah I guess Southern slaveholders could have left and that probably would have beenyuekit
- smarter than trying to start a war.yuekit
- Go somewhere else seems like logical argument to me and actually a market based solution. Even if there is no libertarian utopia you can at least go somewhereyuekit
- that has much lower taxes and smaller government. If enough people did, that would create pressure for the rest of the world to move in that direction.yuekit
- oh yea and a big hole is coercion isn't voluntary. feeding stray cats is voluntary, feeding lazy poor people at threat of jail is coercion. No tax is voluntary********
- I will argue in favor some are necessary evils, but i wont ever forget the fundamental principle that it is a theft. Never think of it as voluntary or a gift********
- It's not a gift or a theft. More like a contract. If you want to be part of society and the benefits that come along with it, you have to pay the cost to do so.yuekit
- u have a weird way of looking at everything. by your logic those that didnt leave germany excepted the social contract of killing jews.********
- that slavery was correct before abe lincoln********
- what you seem to support is a pacifist mob rule********
- and anyone who accepts such social contract much like the dude said is absolved of guilt. since it was voted for. i think bliz nailed it********
- but the thing is you dont believe slavery was correct. so i dont see how you can only cherry pick what you accept by your logic********
- I can only explain it so many times...you have the choice to opt out, slaves didn't.yuekit
- I mean really it's the height of first world problems to compare paying tax and living in a democratic society with slavery and Nazi Germany.yuekit
- it wasn't about the slaves. it was the free people against slavery. the principle of defying popular majority.********
- its the lack of principle. you see only now a small tax and say ok, but f that changes your logic would be to accept it or get out like a jew instead of stand********
- i guess we can agree to disagree. i never go with popular majority as sound reasoning. i think trump will prove the fatal flaw there.********
- ex. you'd pay X% to fund trumps wall, or leave the country with nothing but smiles?********
- and leaving the country worked so well for all the syrians********