Brendan Eich resigns as Mozilla CEO
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- i_was0
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- ukit20
Some food for thought:
http://bigthink.com/postcards-fr…
The question "Why can't we all just get along?" suggests a particular framework for thinking about the answer. Implicit is the idea that a solution to institutionalized racism and sexism lies in convincing the dominant group to relinquish their biases and share the power.
Never once did Martin Luther King Jr. use the word tolerance in his speeches, says Žižek. "For him (and he was right) it would have been an obscenity to say white people should learn to tolerate us more." The goal of the Civil Rights Movement was not simply appealing to liberal magnanimity, but demanding equity, including economic equity. Tolerance is a request that represents a retreat from that ambitious vision. When King marched on Washington D.C., he didn't say, "learn to live with us." He said, "We're here to cash a check"
- ukit20
Georges, not to debate this endlessly, but wanted to respond to a point you made:
"I'm happy to see that you rather ignore the problem than confront it, you say it's not such a bad thing that anti-gay or racist views aren't tolerated anymore and I tell you to the contrary, it's horrible,"
I think you might have a different perspective on this if you think back further in human history. Remember that for a long time (i.e., before development of modern morality) people were pretty barbaric in their views. It was considered normal to murder someone for food, to rape women, etc. Just a few hundred years ago, if you broke the law, the government might put your head on a spike or torture you.
Is it such a bad thing that in most societies, this is no longer considered acceptable? We don't tolerate those views, and nothing has been lost because of it. I'd rather live in a world where we don't have to waste time debating stuff like that, and can move onto other issues. Same goes for racism and homophobia. If we can move past it, it's a good thing, not a loss.
- ukit good point but let me point out something, not because a society doesn't address a problem anymore does it means it moved past it, I love bad history and some things are repeated ad nauseum without real basis, you say 100 years ago if you broke the law the government will put your head on a spike or torture you, the irony is kinda strong on this one don't you think, when we're presently confronted with this, http://www.theguardi…, another example of bad history is saying we're not governed by pedo and fascist when it's actually just that, look...GeorgesII
- means it moved past it, I love bad history and some things are repeated ad nauseum without real basis, you say 100 years ago if you broke the law the government will put your head on a spike or torture you, the irony is kinda strong on this one don't you think, when we're presently confronted with this, http://www.theguardi…, another example of bad history is saying we're not governed by pedo and fascist when it's actually just that, look up the head of the biggest corporations for a laugh, I don't think you can stomach the pedo think so...GeorgesII
- years ago if you broke the law the government will put your head on a spike or torture you, the irony is kinda strong on this one don't you think, when we're presently confronted with this, http://www.theguardi…, another example of bad history is saying we're not governed by pedo and fascist when it's actually just that, look up the head of the biggest corporations for a laugh, I don't think you can stomach the pedo think so I'll post it if you want it but even I find it too disgusting to talk about it.. I repeat another time,...GeorgesII
- one don't you think, when we're presently confronted with this, http://www.theguardi…, another example of bad history is saying we're not governed by pedo and fascist when it's actually just that, look up the head of the biggest corporations for a laugh, I don't think you can stomach the pedo think so I'll post it if you want it but even I find it too disgusting to talk about it.. I repeat another time, people aren't past racism and homophobia, they just pretend to be ok with it, think about it at the time 55% of californian voted against it,...GeorgesII
- saying we're not governed by pedo and fascist when it's actually just that, look up the head of the biggest corporations for a laugh, I don't think you can stomach the pedo think so I'll post it if you want it but even I find it too disgusting to talk about it.. I repeat another time, people aren't past racism and homophobia, they just pretend to be ok with it, think about it at the time 55% of californian voted against it, that a majority of people who will pretend to be ok with it, anyways, before people spin...GeorgesII
- corporations for a laugh, I don't think you can stomach the pedo think so I'll post it if you want it but even I find it too disgusting to talk about it.. I repeat another time, people aren't past racism and homophobia, they just pretend to be ok with it, think about it at the time 55% of californian voted against it, that a majority of people who will pretend to be ok with it, anyways, before people spin this into georges is a homophobe, let me reiterate that I'm just against making people step down because of their views...GeorgesII
- too disgusting to talk about it.. I repeat another time, people aren't past racism and homophobia, they just pretend to be ok with it, think about it at the time 55% of californian voted against it, that a majority of people who will pretend to be ok with it, anyways, before people spin this into georges is a homophobe, let me reiterate that I'm just against making people step down because of their views not that I agree with themGeorgesII
- to be ok with it, think about it at the time 55% of californian voted against it, that a majority of people who will pretend to be ok with it, anyways, before people spin this into georges is a homophobe, let me reiterate that I'm just against making people step down because of their views not that I agree with themGeorgesII
- be ok with it, anyways, before people spin this into georges is a homophobe, let me reiterate that I'm just against making people step down because of their views not that I agree with themGeorgesII
- people step down because of their views not that I agree with them
(god I hate writing in this box)GeorgesII - I agree, it's a step backwards. That's why I'd rather live in a society where torture is not even tolerated or up for debate.ukit2
- debate.ukit2
- ernexbcn0
GeorgesIV what's your stance on gay marriage?
- ukit20
I do think you make a good argument and I understand where you're coming from more than you might think. I lived in Europe for a while and one of the things I noticed is that there was a lot more "racism" etc thrown around, a lot of time in joking way, whereas in the U.S. it's less acceptable to talk about these thing. But I've never lived in a society where you would want a fasicst or pedo as head of a major company.
All I'm saying is, do we treat gay rights on the same level as civil rights? I'm not even gay myself, but if I was I would not want to work for someone who viewed me as a second class citizen. I don't think it's crazy or extreme for people to organize a boycott and express their views on that subject.
- GeorgesIV0
Ukit, fast because I need to bounce,
I've lived and worked on 4 different continents met thousand of earthlings each with their points of views, tried to understand their culture and point of views and I think I'm really tolerant of everyone, honestly..it may be maybe hard for you to comprehend it because as you pointed you live in the US where the mentality of "you're either with us or against us" prevail but I'm a citizen of planet earth I know full well not everyone is as open minded as myself but I try to set an example,
I'm happy to see that you rather ignore the problem than confront it, you say it's not such a bad thing that anti-gay or racist views aren't tolerated anymore and I tell you to the contrary, it's horrible,
I meet racist people everyday and I don't want to silence them, I think I've exhausted myself to show you how slippery this slope is, but you really don't want to see how dangerous it is to exclude a section of the population because they hold a view contrary to yours even if this view is horrible, but I can tell you that is exactly how conflicts starts and this about your country, if there's ever a civil was like in mine it won't be pretty.
as of the fred phelps, this is what I had to say about his passing:
"Honestly atheists and gays should fuckn thank this guy and his group, they single-handedly pushed more believers towards atheism and acceptance of gays than the millions spent in advertisind by the lgbt, for fucks sakes, their message was "GOD HATES FAG" even Bernays couldn't come out with something so brilliant, " http://www.qbn.com/topics/685114…
maybe you should thank him
- ukit20
Georges just out of curiosity have you ever lived in the U.S. or visit here? Because even though a controversy like this gets a lot of attention, it's happening within a bubble of the liberal tech community.
This is the still the same country where a super-majority are conservative Christians and where I get people staring at me in some neighborhoods because I'm not white. So in spite of what it might look like, there isn't too much of a threat of the social justice warriors taking over anytime soon.
And getting back to my original argument, no society or person (even you, I imagine) is tolerant of everyone. Yes in theory it sounds nice, the idea of tolerance and we all talk it out: the anti Semite making friends with the Jew, Fred Phelps holding hands with the gay rights activist etc. But the reality is that everyone draws a line somewhere. And even though the issue has moved rather quickly, it seems to me it's not such a bad thing if, at least within the tech community, holding anti-gay views is no longer tolerated, just like racist views are not.
- GeorgesIV0
and also I think it's strange that they say he didn't come and explained himself when he has a blogpost dated march 26 which does exactly that...
I will paste it just in case you still didn't read it
----I am deeply honored and humbled by the CEO role. I’m also grateful for the messages of support. At the same time, I know there are concerns about my commitment to fostering equality and welcome for LGBT individuals at Mozilla. I hope to lay those concerns to rest, first by making a set of commitments to you. More important, I want to lay them to rest by actions and results.
A number of Mozillians, including LGBT individuals and allies, have stepped forward to offer guidance and assistance in this. I cannot thank you enough, and I ask for your ongoing help to make Mozilla a place of equality and welcome for all. Here are my commitments, and here’s what you can expect:
Active commitment to equality in everything we do, from employment to events to community-building.
Working with LGBT communities and allies, to listen and learn what does and doesn’t make Mozilla supportive and welcoming.
My ongoing commitment to our Community Participation Guidelines, our inclusive health benefits, our anti-discrimination policies, and the spirit that underlies all of these.
My personal commitment to work on new initiatives to reach out to those who feel excluded or who have been marginalized in ways that makes their contributing to Mozilla and to open source difficult. More on this last item below.I know some will be skeptical about this, and that words alone will not change anything. I can only ask for your support to have the time to “show, not tell”; and in the meantime express my sorrow at having caused pain.
Mozilla is a movement composed of different people around the world, working productively together on a common mission. This is important to our ability to work and grow around the world.
Many Mozillians and others know me as a colleague or a friend. They know that I take people as they come and work with anyone willing to contribute. At the same time, I don’t ask for trust free of context, or without a solid structure to support accountability. No leader or person who has a privileged position should. I want to be held accountable for what I do as CEO. I fully expect you all to do so.
I am committed to ensuring that Mozilla is, and will remain, a place that includes and supports everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity, age, race, ethnicity, economic status, or religion.
You will see exemplary behavior from me toward everyone in our community, no matter who they are; and the same toward all those whom we hope will join, and for those who use our products. Mozilla’s inclusive health benefits policies will not regress in any way. And I will not tolerate behavior among community members that violates our Community Participation Guidelines or (for employees) our inclusive and non-discriminatory employment policies.
You’ll also see more from Mozilla under my leadership in the way of efforts to include potential contributors, especially those who lack privilege. This entails several projects, starting with Project Ascend, which is being developed by Lukas Blakk. I intend to demonstrate with meaningful action my commitment to a Mozilla that lives up to its ideals, including that of being an open and inclusive community.
- GeorgesIV0
The thing is Ukit, has he ever pushed his views on his employees, I've yet to read anything to the contrary so the answer is no,
has he brought mozilla and the web in general forward while keeping his personal views to himself, the answers is yes,
https://brendaneich.com/2014/03/…
I personally think it's petty to check someone's entire life while completely forgetting the achievement he made for all of us, where will the web be without javascript? be honest
"Public records show that between 1991 and 1992, Eich donated a total of $1,000 to Pat Buchanan, then a rightwing Republican presidential candidate. In 1996 and 1998, Eich donated a total of $2,500 to Ron Paul, a maverick Republican congressman for Texas's 14th district."
do you think in 30 years when the social structure would have evolved to something you do not agree with, you will feel happy that they go dig into your past for things that at the end of the day are personal choices,
let say: in 15 years, it is not socially accepted to listen to electronic music, someone dig in your past and pulls out that you frequented a forum where you often posted music of that genre and this leads to you being ostracized (this is a light example btw, to not pull the obligatory child rapist, racist, killer trope)
don't you see the slippery slopes, we're currently having the snowden leaks showing us that they are cataloging our habits/conversation/metadata, do you not see how dangerous it is to go down this road and accepting that because someone is/was/ will be a bigot he shouldn't have the same protection then the person he criticizes?
am I not getting to you at all?
- ukit20
Keep in mind Eich also donated to the Presidential campaign of Pat Buchanan, a far right winger who said that AIDS was God's vengeance enacted on gays.
http://www.theguardian.com/techn…
So that gives you an idea of his politics. Two decades later, his views apparently hadn't changed that much.
So yeah...forgiveness and tolerance is nice but do you really want that person running one of the most important web organizations?
Or I guess the real question is...is it OK for people to voice their opposition to him being the head of that organization? Ultimately I would say that people do have the right to protest these things and Mozilla has to keep their audience in mind. Not everyone is going to be the best candidate for every job.
- GeorgesIV0
for someone that had to run away from skinheads after school and got some cool letters kindly offering us to go back to our country all expenses paid for (boat, bananas and cages), this thread from reddit warmed my heart, it made me happy to see that my outlook at life isn't the wrong one, I know deep down people can change, even just talking to someone can make him rethink his life choice, sadly forcing someone's hand will often result in the opposite.
I do not harbour any hate for anyone (maybe hypocrites) but even then I learned to go toward them and confront them with words and ideas. I know some of you think its wishful thinking but I swear it works, from the fascist jeweller from the neighboor that thought I never saw rain because I was african, there isn't a single person I couldn't change after inserting myself in their thought process.
I know sometimes I end up sounding harsh in this forum, but please bare with me, english isn't my language and qbn is actually the only place I use it.
enjoy
- i_monk0
60% of Prop 8 donations from Intel were in support. (Where's the boycott?)
- i_monk0
Framing a desire for equal treatment under the law as an "inflated sense of entitlement" is like call women's suffrage or the end of slavery "special treatment". Being called names is grounds for thicker skin; being turned away or fired or whatever is a rights issue.
- uh yeah.. not what i said.
enjoy your weekend.SteveJobs - that's exactly what you said, actuallyhereswhatidid
- uh yeah.. not what i said.
- SteveJobs0
remember 10 or so years ago when that whole PC thing started gaining popularity as a measure of tolerance? I think it hurt more than helped. I think now too many groups in society have this inflated sense of entitlement and it's causing more division. it's like we're breeding a bunch of Jesse Jackson's to preach the one gospel as the end-all be-all truth and those who oppose be damned.
it's a hopeless dream of mine, but to summarize my stance on almost every social issue i'd advocate one thing and one thing alone:
people should grow thicker skin.
- 'PC' was a term invented to legitimize being a dick to groups that didn't have privilege.
I'd suggest you check yours.mikotondria3
- 'PC' was a term invented to legitimize being a dick to groups that didn't have privilege.
- SteveJobs0
^ That's true. Mozilla may have had a legal precadent, but I think we both know they were trying to appease the masses. Again, I'm not faulting them for *their* decision. I'm taking issue with the fact that people are vilifying Eich for his beliefs and that, that itself forced mozilla to take action.
- ukit20
Most states have right to work laws which means your employer can fire you for any reason (or no reason). There's nothing that says if I start a project with someone or hire them to be my spokesperson that I have to continue to work with them when they do something that offends me.
So no ones constitutional rights were violated. At best we are talking about social conventions in terms of what views are publicly acceptable for a CEO to have.
- SteveJobs0
generally when forming a company and selecting your staff you exercise prudence. If somehow a member of the company holds a wildly conflicting view from the rest that somehow only reveals itself years down the road the only real reason to fire them is if their views directly affect the business.
this is what happened with Eich. I don't care if he left voluntarily or was fired. He had to go because of a precadent set by society. People have bought in to the notion that his unpopular opinion is wrong and bad and therefore Mozilla is wrong and bad and therefore it is there social duty to remove him or else! Effectively, he was removed for acting on his constitutional rights.
- So it's society's fault that people disagreed with him?hereswhatidid
- society puts the onus on companies to comply with their personal belifs in exchange for business.SteveJobs
- ohhhhhsnap0
this dude invented JS?
