Ban the Burqa?
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- 143 Responses
- dbloc0
- In retrospect, thread should have ended here. Oh well..ukit
- why, to scared to talk about it?FredMcWoozy
- neue75_bold0
"society's right to view someone's face"
really?
I think the notion of banning it is absolutely ridiculous and ignorant... I'd be more empathetic towards the banning of skinny jeans...
- is a kkk outfit OK to wear down the street?BusterBoy
- are you equating muslim women with the kkk? erk?bigtrick
- not at all...but both are forms of identity supression and cultural repression to some.BusterBoy
- and, to answer your question, yes it is ok to wear a pointy hat in the street:
http://en.wikipedia.…bigtrick - i'd say that's a huge stretch. if a burqa is a symbol of repression, so is a christian cross.bigtrick
- the cross absolutely is a symbol of repression.set
- Is Jesus was shot would Christians wear gun medallions around their necks?jruggs
- georgesIII0
- "égalité"ukit
- How about some equality for women too?ukit
- you forgot, the first one, liberté, and third one fraternité, then the last and erased ou la mort.georgesIII
- Freedom to be forced to do something by your husband...is freedom how exactly?ukit
- Freedom for every husband to force his woman to wear burqasdrgz
- bigtrick0
Wrong to ban it. it's a freedom thing. The argument that society has the right to view someone's face, therefore burqas should be banned, carries as much weight as society having the right to view someone's hair, so yarmulkes should be banned.
There's a lot more history to this particular ban. Due to the Algerian war, there is a lot of... racial distaste in France for Algerians, who are a significant minority there. The ban is sort of a proxy for the undercurrent of racism that France is still suffering through from those days.
More on the war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alg…
- ukit0
- you get your history from cartoons now,
georgesIII - a cartoon based on an Iranian woman's real life experience, why not?ukit
- you did watch the movie right?
maybe you should watch it again and learn why the revolution happend.georgesIII - It's a good film though, right?ukit
- you get your history from cartoons now,
- Projectile0
exador1.. so what you are saying is that these people want to wear them? sure, they do.. you make a good point.
But whether they do it because their family/community will kill them, or because they just want to fit in more at school, it's a complication they wouldn't have to deal with if/when this law is passed.
- Amicus0
Most western societies are based on openness and freedom and the Burqua doesn't fit in with this culture. If they want to move into these types of countries people should be accepting of the culture that is already there, and not try to change it to their way of thinking.
I think countries have every right to create laws that respect their culture, traditions and history.
- most of these 'cultures' are based on the retention of individual cultures though...neue75_bold
- there's fair merit to this train of thought i think.airey
- I agree with this in a general sense too. It's unfortunate that it's come to this, but most countries would do the same.ukit
- georgesIII0
Sérieusement,
est ce qu'il y a d'autre français qui pourrait nous donner leur avis sur se sujet,
je trouve ça vraiment drôle, que les seuls personnes a parler ici on l'air d'avoir une très petite connaissance de l'histoire française ou de la france en générale.donner moi votre avis,
- ukit0
LOL - georges, do you really think I don't know history or the details of the Iranian Revolution?
For sure, US, France and other Western nations committed some fairly horrendous actions, whether in Iran, Africa or other parts of the world. I don't pretend otherwise. I hope you don't hold the fact that I happened to be born here in the States against me, it certainly doesn't mean I agree with every past or current action of the American regime;)
- sqloud0
But, hey, c'mon guys. In France we have more important problems to deal with. What about the national soccer team. At least that's what the governement is "focusing" on.
Thanks for arguing for us.
- airey0
"society’s right to view someone’s face"
this isn't a right. it's your opinion on what a 'right' should be."Just a hunch, and not based in fact, but I would say the vast majority of Muslim women who wear the Burqa and claim it is by choice, only say this to avoid persecution by muslim men."
this is also just your opinion and not complete but certainly bullshit.do some actual reading and research. to start with there's a fantastic documentary by the BBC world service about this very thing. they interview a lady who is promoting the niqab (the burqa is the full body outer garment) usage. she in fact started wearing even though her husband really isn't into it.
most important is the fact that it is a niqab ban, not a burqa ban. the burqa is the full body outer garment as mentioned above.
don't have the arrogance to presume you understand other cultures belief systems when measuring them against your own. a mormon might say you drink and smoke because you're a lost soul or trying to escape reality whereas i just think it's nice to have a mental break from time to time. your perspective is given by what belief system and morals you're learnt growing up.
personally i think it's ridiculous to ban it because we're all scared that it hides a terrorist underneath. do you think many of the terrorist cells around the western world are seriously going to do anything that makes them stand out like this? by pushing against peoples deep seated beliefs we're just going to make enemies of them which does the opposite of what we really want to achieve.
that;s just me quickly and badly written 2 cents. i'm probably wrong.
- ukit0
While I wouldn't vote for that law, seems to me that very few in the West would try to deny Muslim countries the right to force women to wear the burqa. We'd justify it by saying it's their own culture and who are we to judge etc etc.
But in that case how can Muslims on one hand impose it on their own people, but say that France doesn't have the right to dictate what they want? It seems to me that either you should be against ALL countries making laws that restrict this stuff, or none.
- ukit0
Anyway, I do agree with those who say the proposed law is mostly just an attempt by the UMP/ Sarkozy to kiss up to the nationalist sentiment...but I disagree with anyone who claims all Muslim women want to wear the hijab or that it is not a symbol of oppression.
- And it is France's choice in the end, let them make up their own minds about it.ukit
- bigtrick0
you have hit it on the head, in a twisted way, amicus. in france's case, i would say that people are quite insular - the burqa ban is a way to force muslim women to be more "french" and less "muslim." this is the complete opposite of freedom. it is forced conformity.
- actually, they have the freedom to accept that culture and live there, or to find somewhere else that accepts that culture.Amicus
- so you retract your "Most western societies are based on openness and freedom" bit then eh?bigtrick
- it's now "Western societies - be like us or gtfo," eh? Seems like that's what you're sayingbigtrick
- see belowAmicus
- georgesIII0
You sometimes right Ukit, and God knows how many time we've argueed,
but the part that I often don't agree with you, is that you often ignore why some part of the world are screwed up,and I'm not talking about things that happened a thousand years ago,
I'm talking about events that took place one or two generations away and are still fresh in some people's memory, because they are still living in those tyrannical statesnow that you were born in the US or not is not my problem, but you should think that if you were born in another spot of this planet (let say irak under saddam or US occupation) you wouldn't probably think, speak or act the way you do,
you don't chose where you end up but you still have to "deal with it" :)
- man how many time do I use often, I need to hit those english books againgeorgesIII
- but still you are after me about it...and not others...when I had nothing to do with it nor did my parents who aren't even Americanukit
- Americanukit
- airey0
and BusterBoy, the KKK comment has just made it clear you're a class-a fucking idiot. fuck me, middle class white boy with insular views. what a novelty online.
- Projectile0
Basically, it's freedom to practice one's own religion vs freedom to wear whatever one wants and gender equality.
They can't really stop arranged marriages and oppression of women, but what they CAN do is show that the country as a whole finds it unacceptable, and this is one of the few ways that they can do this.
I have nothing against any religion as long as they just quietly practice it, but religion should be a belief in something, not an all-out ritualistic, outdated bunch of nonsense. The burqa is a human invention by men, for the SOLE purpose of oppressing women, so I say ban it.
- georgesIII0
Projectile, youre totally right,
but why not ban all religious outfit all together,
why only muslim outfits?I'm sure catholics nun will love to wear jeans or amish in mini skirt,
but we never pick on them,lets ban all of them then.
- Nuns get to choose to be nuns...false analogyukit
- actually ukit, not all the muslim women are forced to wear one, should we make the choice for them,georgesIII
- do Amish, orthodox jews get to chose?georgesIII
- Sureukit
- Amish specifically let their kids choose, when they hit a certain age, whether they want to live that lifeukit
- ukit0
^ An Australian that swears, what a novelty.
- Sep0
@bigtrick: It's a freedom thing? Even if that freedom allows extremists to limit the freedom of others?
If wearing a burqa excludes you from normal social interaction, from functioning in society, should that same society stand behind it?