Ban the Burqa?
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- airey0
christians in china used to be killed. due to their vilification they were ofter granted entry into countries like the usa. wordwide people frowned down their noses at the situation where a person wearing a cross around their neck getting 20 years in prison. at the very least being told you couldn't wear a cross was considered heinous civil rights abuse. although it was china so nobody was surprised.
america was founded by people escaping persecution for their beliefs. and they wore fucking stupid hats and the women had to wear bonnets and dresses. gingham probably. they didn't give much of a fuck about the locals culture, although they did add smallpox infused blankets into the mix so maybe that's still held on to?
the niqab, or burqa or hijab aren't attacking other countries cultures. these people aren't secluding themselves away in compounds, not learning the local language and plotting our downfall. they are simply living here with different views and socio-religious expressions.
it's worth discussing and if the majority feels that seeing someones face is paramount then so be it.
but are our so-called 'cultural' beliefs actually that important to us? all of them? really? what designates a places culture evolves. it takes bits in and takes bits out. shit, around 12% of australians actually go to church yet we call ourselves a christian nation but only because that's the version of a 'creator' we were taught and kinda believe in but not really. yet our not-really-believed belief is enough to get the shits with someone else who ears something they do believe in.
the main issue i feel with this is that so much of it is based on opinion and not fact.
it's oppressing women - really? do they feel that way? if they do then shit, let's stop it but shouldn't it come from their mouths? i think arranged marriage is nuts and oppressive yet that's still common practice in some cultures. it's not for me to say as it's got nothing to do with me. it's a tad arrogant to measure the world by your own standards with everything. especially a persons religion. unless it's scientology in which case fuck 'em.
referencing taliban insanity when talking about the muslim religion is completely nuts. and ignorant. find the most hardline right-wing baptist kkk 'christian' and make him more myopic and small minded and you come slightly close to what the taliban are in relation to the muslim faith. they are fucking insane to the point that even moderate muslims are now calling for them to be killed thanks to the bombing the other week.
all in all though i like that we discuss shit here.
- exador10
a lot of posturing and talk and bluster here, but I'll just toss in a few things i happen to know for a 'fact' as well....
my wife is a highschool teacher here....at her school there are a lot of kids from Pakistan, afghanistan, india, you name it....
now, when they get new girl students in from these countries, say fr'instance, pakistan, many of them do not, in fact, where the hijab or anything else....but....
after being here for a little while they do.
now...let me tell ya why.....
some of the imams and such around here these days can be a bit hardcore about this stuff....in turn, the local kids that have been here awhile pressure the newcomers into wearing it....
most of them do in order to either 'fit in' or so that they don't run afoul of any local preachers etc.....
that's just one teachers observation....and she's seen that happen quite a bit over the past few years....also, there have been (in the past few years) quite a few 'honor' killings....girls that didn't want to wear this stuff and thought they could get away with not doing so being killed by their families for 'dishonoring' them...
there's a case going on here right now (or just ended)....poor kid got killed by her dad and older brother because she didn't want to wear the hijab...
anyhow, any way you slice it, it's very sad....
i'm all for people wearing what they want....you want to wear a sheet over your body, go for it...
you want to walk around with your head covered?...go nuts....however...choices are choices....
and a lot of folks choose NOT to like that sort of thing, and will choose NOT to want to either work with you, be around you, or get along with you...
there's always been a heard mentality with people...its just the way things are...
and when confronted with something like this that's outside the 'norm' (girls and women covering up to this degree) people tend to get antsy about it....it makes them feel awkward.
and when folks feel awkward, they lash out.if it was 100% understood and accepted that all these women and girls were doing it 100% because they wanted to, i think that would go a long way to making things acceptable to atleast most reasonable people...
but that is not the case is it?
most folks think (and there's a reason for it) that these women and girls are NOT 100% into this, in and of their own choice etc.....
and since there's that doubt, there is a feeling that these girls (or atleast some) are being forced to do it..
which makes folks a little bit angry about it.....
which leads to misunderstandings about culture, which leads to xenophobia, etc...
- callitropsis0
Are burqas part of the Muslim religion (mentioned in the Koran) or are they just a cultural practices? Does anyone know?
- callitropsis0
"There is evidence that this type of dress was worn by some Arab and Persian women long before Islam."
as quoted from Wikipedia
- cannonball19780
Didn't they just ban minarets? That's like banning church bells.
- in italy they still won't allow them when there are 3 churches bell located less than a km from my house and like 15 church in total in this towngeorgesIII
- 15 churches in total in this towngeorgesIII
- georgesIII0
^
You perfectly summed up what I was going to write Airey,
This whole ban the burka thing has no real basis in reality but is based of fear,
the fear that make you win votes.
- WrappedInBooks0
^ I think it could be drawn that freedom of religion (freedom from persecution) should be extend to those who don't want to wear the face or body covering. What the French government (and most of Europe) are doing is a heavy handed attempt at the preservation of (what they believe to be) civil rights.
- ukit0
It's a reaction at the panic they feel of "losing" their culture in the face of immigration.
- airey0
well if you're banning those godforsaken bells i'll lend a hand. i'm tired of being woken up early after a late saturday night sacrificing virgins in pentagrams and such.
- no fuck shit,
at least they stop at 11 then start again at 6'15georgesIII
- no fuck shit,
- lukus_W0
They shouldn't be banned. Freedom is important... trying to control the way another person presents themselves is moral dubious behaviour and is ultimately non-constructive.
Education & discussion are the only routes to lasting change. It might sound overly PC and right-on, but it's the truth.
- what the fuck is non-constructive?
your such a moral fag dudespraycanII
- what the fuck is non-constructive?
- drgz0
Muslim women do not choose to cover themselves by own will (no healthy, self-respecting woman would)
In Burqa-wearing muslim communities women decide nothing
It's an ancient religious rudiment forced on people by Imams
- Did you poll a cross-section of muslim women for this or were you just told this and assumed it sounded righteouscannonball1978
- Any leader of a mosque or any person in Islamic leadership position will tell you that directlydrgz
- Who btw are all mendrgz
- yeah, but what did the women you asked say?airey
- Is exactly my point: they have no say on thisdrgz
- callitropsis0
" trying to control the way another person presents themselves is moral dubious behaviour and is ultimately non-constructive."
isn't that what forcing someone to wear a burqa is doing? controlling the way they present themselves?
this issue is just one giant catch 22
- Gov legistaltion is not the same as cultural norms that create a predisposition to wear a Burqa.lukus_W
- the women don't want to wear that crap. they only say they do, because if they didn't, they'd pay for it.iCanHasQBN
- and i grew up around muslim women. most of my family is muslim.iCanHasQBN
- But it IS the law in many parts of the world, isn't it?ukit
- exactly. illegal NOT to wear it. i can't believe you're actually supporting this, lukus.iCanHasQBN
- i know it may seem as though freedoms are being taken away, but really they are GIVING freedom, in the long run.iCanHasQBN
- ..run.iCanHasQBN
- an anology, it's like you're supporting man's "freedom" to cage his dog for life.iCanHasQBN
- just because you're free to do something, doesn't mean it's harmless.iCanHasQBN
- Provide legislature to allow women the opportunity to not wear a Burqa .. don't make it illegal to wear one.lukus_W
- 'banning' this kind of dress is a swing too far in the opposite direction, imo.lukus_W
- that would never work. the woman would take her burqa off and her husband would beat her to death.iCanHasQBN
- You can't say that for sure. On a couple of levels, what you're proposing is similar to the concepts that led to the 'liberation' of Iraq.lukus_W
- .. 'liberation' of Iraq. It's a slippery slope.lukus_W
- We're really talking about stereotypes here - all a government can do is act dispassionately, and impartially. Anything else is wrong, imo.lukus_W
- Anything else is wrong, imo.lukus_W
- yeah, but the french aren't invading a muslim country and trying to 'liberate' them. they're protecting themselvesiCanHasQBN
- from the ills of religioniCanHasQBN
- i understand protecting freedoms is important, but not when those freedoms are oppressive.iCanHasQBN
- And as far as the husband beating his wife for taking off her burqa, yes i CAN say this for sure. times a million.iCanHasQBN
- The decision by the French is either political or practical. If it's the former, it's a divisive move and possibly xenophobic imo.lukus_W
- No good will come from it -> it will create more (strongly felt) divides throughout French society.lukus_W
- just as religion has done for hundreds of years. yay for superstition.iCanHasQBN
- I think I know what you mean and I think yr motivation is good .. but people can't be forced to do the wrong or right thing. Choice is key.lukus_W
- Choice is key.lukus_W
- not if it's harmful. i have the Choice to murder someone today. But society has deemed this choice harmfuliCanHasQBN
- ..and illegal.iCanHasQBN
- That comparison is completely illogical. No one dies if a woman chooses to wear a Burqa.lukus_W
- You need to accept that some women will freely choose to dress in this way.lukus_W
- The oppression of women is harmful. this is not their choice anyway, they're being forced.iCanHasQBN
- Re: 'forced to do the wrong or right thing', I was referring to imposing a world-view on a person via legislation.lukus_W
- as said, it's a catch 22. islam imposes their views on persons person via legislation. need to leave the office, bye.iCanHasQBN
- You can't assume it's 'not their choice' -> some women (perhaps even the majority) will choose to dress in this way.lukus_W
- Okay, bye -> but Islam is no worse than Christianity imo.lukus_W
- the vast majority do not want to. i come from arabic culture, i know how those men control every move and action of their wives.iCanHasQBN
- wives. and i'm not here to defend christianity. i'm against all forms of archaic practices and ways of thinking.iCanHasQBN
- ok... byeiCanHasQBN
- georgesIII0
ban the theresa
btw they're showing too much neck,,
- georgesIII0
way too much neck
- georgesIII0
Show yer face, u evil braide!
- upi can't see her face, because I can, and she's having second thoughts. :)Amicus
- lukus_W0
Banning Muslim religious dress in particular is singling out particular members of society.
If the route issue is identification - that issue needs to be addressed. If a law was to be introduced, the law would logically (and fairly) need to provide legislature that addresses that route issue.
- cannonball19780
How about we even pull this back further and realize how simple minded it is perpetuating the discourse that lumps terrorists into being only muslim.
There are all kinds of terrorists. National Socialist Terrorists, Eco Terrorists, Narco Terrorists etc.
Whenever I hear arguments like this it reeks of people trying to defend their right to be suspicious and hateful of a group. Yes. You have that right. You also have the right to bear arms. Do you really want to live in that mindset your whole life though?
For the record I'm half-Afghan.
- but canon, they are brown,
why don't you get it,
repeat after me, all brow peeps are terroristgeorgesIII - Halfghan!neue75_bold
- but canon, they are brown,
- georgesIII0
It's an heresy, burn the witches
- georgesIII0
oooh I almost forgot thos s'amish people
- georgesIII0
religious groups and their facination for hiding trendy haircuts
