Costs/charging
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- vaxorcist0
one negotiation phrase that has worked in the past for me was "We need to make sure this is an agreement we are both going to be happy about"
- vaxorcist0
One thing to remember... everyone wants their "money's worth"... and doesn't want to feel "taken advantage of"... and has to "at least win one negotiation item"
I've seen this sort of thing on a shoot I was on where the client insisted on saving money for lunch....not that we ate expensively for other clients, but there was some fresh salad,etc.... well, this client got a pile of sub sandwiches from the grocery store... needless to say the models were not happy after lunch.... and looked like it....
Your reputation depends on "great images"... just remember that somebody in the client's company in accounting may feel that their reputation depends on "great deals" and they may push very hard to keep that reputation.....
I did know one photographer who threw in a couple of random little automatic freakout things in estimates so that clients who had to "drive a hard bargain" would have something to complain about.... something he could afford to lose....
- johnnnnyh0
"Client wants a "ballpark figure" so he/she can get approval, get the suits to say yes,etc... but often this gets written in stone, as a "maximum" while the actual job description starts out as a "minimum" and expands a lot, often a whole lot, with the "ballpark figure" being considered a ceiling, not a floor, no matter how many things get added in" - this is exactly it!!
I try to give a quick price to be helpful and get a project moving but it inevitably comes back to bite me in the backside.
Boobs, you're right. I'm going to say no to over the phone prices. You'd think after over 10 years in business I would have learnt!
What I have found now, with a tighter economy that there's less flexibility in pricing all round. Clients want to pay less, my overheads are increasing and it's therefore much harder to throw in all the value added when you've been beaten so low on price that it barely covers your salary.
- vaxorcist0
boobs is right.... very right....
there is a difficult thing to deal with here....
Client wants a "ballpark figure" so he/she can get approval, get the suits to say yes,etc... but often this gets written in stone, as a "maximum" while the actual job description starts out as a "minimum" and expands alot, often a whole lot, with the "ballpark figure" being considered a cieling, not a floor, no matter how many things get added in..... clients seem to think digital photography is free and they're paying you to show up, so you might as well do all these other random things....
Nobody's evil, there are just situations where was have totally different assumptions... that have to be spelled out in writing.... and with some graceful warm tone of voice to smooth out the possible client freakout from reading an apparently cold sounding written list of business terms....
I send a "cover letter" style email that says "thanks for this great oppotrunity" and such... this can help a lot to smooth out the wrinkled feelings from client feeling confronted by terms in a business document spelling things out.... clients not used to dealing with professional photographers often have very different assumptions that have to be carefully worked through, not ignored, but not scaring them to death either.... or they will find an art student to do it for lunch money or for free...
- boobs0
I think a good rule of thumb is to just altogether stop agreeing to business terms over the phone.
Because one always forgets something. You should always phrase things like "I want to do this for as low a price as I can. But I can't do a thing without talking to my bookkeeper. Let me talk to her, and I'll send you an email outlining the necessary charges."
Don't agree to terms over the phone. Don't give "ballpark" quotes. When it gets to that point, say, "Alright, well, I'll have to work out a quote sheet on this. I'll send it by email in about an hour." That way you have a few minutes to think the situation through clearly. Then phone them as you email the quote, so you can explain it, line by line, if need be.
The worst situation to be in is to agree to something over the phone. Because that can always lead to disagreements later. Even if everyone's intentions are good.
Do the money stuff in writing.
- very good advice I could have used in the past.. learned the hard way...vaxorcist
- johnnnnyh0
Could be more ongoing work - hence the competitive introductory rate. Also, hence my reluctance to load the invoice too heavily. Nevertheless when all is added up, although I shan't make a healthy profit on this job, I'd like to not lose on the basis of the small items which do indeed add up. Travel, background roll, DVDs, postage, batteries, post-production time, etc.
Not trying to be grabby just want to be fair to me and to them.- Read my post above. Probably the best way to approach it. They will understand.chalk
- vaxorcist0
argh....friends don't let friends go broke like this....
Question: how much of an ongoing good future does this job contribute to in a way that's mutually agreeable?
1. is this going to get you more work at a full rate?
2. is this going to get you more work from cheapskates?
3. is this going to help you catapult your portfolio towards higher market clients?
- chalk0
I would call them and have a candid conversation. "Hey pal, I really wanted to do this for you and in my excitement, I offered you a very fair daily rate, but I forgot to factor in my incidentals because I was so excited to do this for you."
Kissing a little ass will go a long way in these situations.
- JSK0
Pick up the phone and tell him that you need to charge extras
Get some balls.
- PIZZA0
"but since it's low I think it's harder to cover the incidental costs."
Maybe you should have charged a higher rate then...Seriously never work with friends on paid work, not worth the stress as this thread shows.
- johnnnnyh0
Well upfront was (as I understood it) a fact finding conversation. I wasn't even sure that they would use me so I just gave them a daily rate as a quick guide. We were discussing other things at the time. The incidental, travel costs etc only really have become apparent since I've added them up against a low daily rate.
There are other reasons why I took the work on - so it's not all financial. The problem is that when everything is added up it's less easy to hide the extra costs when your margins have been cut by a low rate. I know it's my mistake in the sense that a higher daily rate would have covered things comfortably, but that's not where I'm at.
- d_rek0
Why wouldn't you just tell them upfront?
"Ok, my daily rate is X amount, since you're a friend i'll offer you a discounted rate but i'll still have to charge you for practical / incidental costs such as travel, materials, etc. Is that OK with you?"
Ultimately it's your business, reputation and relationship with friends on the line. If you can find a way to charge for the incidentals without damaging any of those things then go for it.
- johnnnnyh0
OK well travelled about 120 miles return - so I think I will charge for that but probably a nominal fee.
Burnt 3 DVDs so won't charge.
I also used £30 worth of batteries on flash gear (long day location shoot with no mains) etc. is it unreasonable to claim that cost?
- 4040
I think it really depends of how things changed.
1. If you traveled 100+ miles and the client never told you about the distance then I would say you can ask for more money.
2. If you burned 300+ dvds and it took a week and a half then you should ask for more money.
BUT if you only traveled 20 miles and burned 2 dvds I would say you need to stick with the daily rate everyone agreed upon.
- johnnnnyh0
I do think daily rate in relation to (location) photography is probably unlikely to include travel costs - is that an unreasonable assumption. When I have commissioned photography travel is usually charged extra.
- johnnnnyh0
Agreement up front is tricky here - location was not decided until after discussion of daily rate, amount of shots (post production work / DVDs etc) was unknown until the day(s). Similarly background requirement didn't rear it's head till later.
I'm just trying to get a sense of right or wrong. If my garage fixes my car but the parts cost more than they expected I don't expect them to pay for them.- Only 12 posts till we resort to car analogies *roll eyes*PIZZA
- 4040
If you agreed to a low daily rate, then that applies to everything.
- johnnnnyh0
To be fair to me, this was a casual chat over the phone. They were sounding out costs and I gave them an idea of what I charge and but indicated that if the job were interesting I could charge a "mate's rate". There was no formal agreement although I'm happy to accept the low daily rate but since it's low I think it's harder to cover the incidental costs. I'm just checking on the feeling of this - no invoice raised yet!
- kalkal0
"hey about that money you owed me. well, we did agree to x amount but I'm afraid I'm now charging y amount. Come on, cough it up"
- TheBlueOne0
So, I guess this tale will be turning up at http://clientsfromhell.net/ by next week then?