Costs/charging
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- vaxorcist0
boobs is right.... very right....
there is a difficult thing to deal with here....
Client wants a "ballpark figure" so he/she can get approval, get the suits to say yes,etc... but often this gets written in stone, as a "maximum" while the actual job description starts out as a "minimum" and expands alot, often a whole lot, with the "ballpark figure" being considered a cieling, not a floor, no matter how many things get added in..... clients seem to think digital photography is free and they're paying you to show up, so you might as well do all these other random things....
Nobody's evil, there are just situations where was have totally different assumptions... that have to be spelled out in writing.... and with some graceful warm tone of voice to smooth out the possible client freakout from reading an apparently cold sounding written list of business terms....
I send a "cover letter" style email that says "thanks for this great oppotrunity" and such... this can help a lot to smooth out the wrinkled feelings from client feeling confronted by terms in a business document spelling things out.... clients not used to dealing with professional photographers often have very different assumptions that have to be carefully worked through, not ignored, but not scaring them to death either.... or they will find an art student to do it for lunch money or for free...
- vaxorcist0
One thing to remember... everyone wants their "money's worth"... and doesn't want to feel "taken advantage of"... and has to "at least win one negotiation item"
I've seen this sort of thing on a shoot I was on where the client insisted on saving money for lunch....not that we ate expensively for other clients, but there was some fresh salad,etc.... well, this client got a pile of sub sandwiches from the grocery store... needless to say the models were not happy after lunch.... and looked like it....
Your reputation depends on "great images"... just remember that somebody in the client's company in accounting may feel that their reputation depends on "great deals" and they may push very hard to keep that reputation.....
I did know one photographer who threw in a couple of random little automatic freakout things in estimates so that clients who had to "drive a hard bargain" would have something to complain about.... something he could afford to lose....
- vaxorcist0
one negotiation phrase that has worked in the past for me was "We need to make sure this is an agreement we are both going to be happy about"
- bulletfactory0
We agreed a (low) daily rate
- YOU MUST charge for incidentals, otherwise you go broke.... or you FTP rather than burn,etc..vaxorcist
- d_rek0
Well, did you discuss charging for those items? Seems a bit dishonest to charge them for those things without having mentioned them before.
I understand why you would want to just that maybe next time you want to be more upfront about what you're charging for.
- JSK0
You should of considered that when you agreed on a price.
Agreement should of included Rate + Travel + incidentals etc
- johnnnnyh0
Yes, exactly, but on top of a daily rate would it be wrong to add costs? Or is the expectation that all the costs get covered in the (low) daily rate?
- kalkal0
It would be wrong to add any costs that you didn't already agree to.
- d_rek0
If you didn't discuss the costs with your client then they're probably assuming your daily rate covers all of your / their needs.
Short answer: It's not *wrong* but it's certainly not the smartest way to do business.
- bjladams0
i try to avoid working for friends, neighbors, real estate agents and friends of friends- no matter what, someone gets it
- TheBlueOne0
So, I guess this tale will be turning up at http://clientsfromhell.net/ by next week then?
- kalkal0
"hey about that money you owed me. well, we did agree to x amount but I'm afraid I'm now charging y amount. Come on, cough it up"
- johnnnnyh0
To be fair to me, this was a casual chat over the phone. They were sounding out costs and I gave them an idea of what I charge and but indicated that if the job were interesting I could charge a "mate's rate". There was no formal agreement although I'm happy to accept the low daily rate but since it's low I think it's harder to cover the incidental costs. I'm just checking on the feeling of this - no invoice raised yet!
- 4040
If you agreed to a low daily rate, then that applies to everything.
- johnnnnyh0
Agreement up front is tricky here - location was not decided until after discussion of daily rate, amount of shots (post production work / DVDs etc) was unknown until the day(s). Similarly background requirement didn't rear it's head till later.
I'm just trying to get a sense of right or wrong. If my garage fixes my car but the parts cost more than they expected I don't expect them to pay for them.- Only 12 posts till we resort to car analogies *roll eyes*PIZZA
- johnnnnyh0
I do think daily rate in relation to (location) photography is probably unlikely to include travel costs - is that an unreasonable assumption. When I have commissioned photography travel is usually charged extra.
- 4040
I think it really depends of how things changed.
1. If you traveled 100+ miles and the client never told you about the distance then I would say you can ask for more money.
2. If you burned 300+ dvds and it took a week and a half then you should ask for more money.
BUT if you only traveled 20 miles and burned 2 dvds I would say you need to stick with the daily rate everyone agreed upon.
- johnnnnyh0
OK well travelled about 120 miles return - so I think I will charge for that but probably a nominal fee.
Burnt 3 DVDs so won't charge.
I also used £30 worth of batteries on flash gear (long day location shoot with no mains) etc. is it unreasonable to claim that cost?
- d_rek0
Why wouldn't you just tell them upfront?
"Ok, my daily rate is X amount, since you're a friend i'll offer you a discounted rate but i'll still have to charge you for practical / incidental costs such as travel, materials, etc. Is that OK with you?"
Ultimately it's your business, reputation and relationship with friends on the line. If you can find a way to charge for the incidentals without damaging any of those things then go for it.
- johnnnnyh0
Well upfront was (as I understood it) a fact finding conversation. I wasn't even sure that they would use me so I just gave them a daily rate as a quick guide. We were discussing other things at the time. The incidental, travel costs etc only really have become apparent since I've added them up against a low daily rate.
There are other reasons why I took the work on - so it's not all financial. The problem is that when everything is added up it's less easy to hide the extra costs when your margins have been cut by a low rate. I know it's my mistake in the sense that a higher daily rate would have covered things comfortably, but that's not where I'm at.