another shooting
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- TheBlueOne0
when has the US EVER in its entire history since its establishment as a sovereign state, would you say, needed an armed uprising against its democratic government - which you would think as legitimate?
FrdmOfSpch
(Apr 19 07, 07:44)Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Maybe the population having guns have kept things in check more than you know.
And just bc we haven't needed it in 200 years doesn't mean we won't in the future.
And until this little brouhaha with this current idiot in the White House trashing the place, most people around the world thought American democracy was pretty spot on.
Think about it.
- FrdmOfSpch0
ha, nah, i'm enjoying this.
when has the US EVER in its entire history since its establishment as a sovereign state, would you say, needed an armed uprising against its democratic government - which you would think as legitimate?
the fact that the US feels that insecurity and no other democracy does, i think, makes it a palpably cultural position.
(man if you're a democrat, then this is why, outside the US, virtually everyone thinks all Americans are simply a different hue of right-wing conservative).
- kelpie0
all this right to be armed/militia against untrustworthy government stuff; ever been acted on? ever been an armed uprising against an american government? and if so, why the fuck has it not happened in the last few years?
please please please use your right to form armed militia and march on the white house. please.
- TheBlueOne0
The 2nd Amendment is rooted in the (very real and always current) distrust of the concentration of violent coercion in state hands AND (outdated) in the idea of having an armed populace to serve as a militia in a pinch.
If you want to call that "cultural" and not pragmatic and wise, whatever. Sorry if I take a long view of human nature and see how organized groups use and seek out violence to carry out an agenda. Personally an armed populace of citizens is a firewall I can live against such things with if it occasional opens up a higher possibility of day to day violence.
Fuck..arguing this makes me feel like a Republican..god I feeel icky all over...
- FrdmOfSpch0
yes, cultural attitudes that finds it expression in the 2nd ammendment. In the western world, uniquely American. its a vicious circle.
glad we agree :)
- TheBlueOne0
ok, sorry, i guess i misunderstood you. I thought you didn't think that the 2nd amendment had anythign to do with gun violence. evidently you do.
cool. so do i.
FrdmOfSpch
(Apr 19 07, 07:14)Well there'd be gun violence regardless of the 2nd amendment.
http://news.google.com/news?hl=e…
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007…
Sure..we probably have more due to the 2nd amendment to a degree...but it's more cultural attitudes than access IMHO..
- FrdmOfSpch0
ok, sorry, i guess i misunderstood you. I thought you didn't think that the 2nd amendment had anythign to do with gun violence. evidently you do.
cool. so do i.
- TheBlueOne0
the denial of responsibilty is when you refuse to accept that the effect, the byproduct of the second ammendment if you will, leads to a gun "menace" in society.
FrdmOfSpch
(Apr 19 07, 07:07)How am I denying responsibility? You can easily argue that the byproduct of the first amendment is having all these people talking shit you don't like and you can't shut them up. There's plenty of peoploe in powers, political and corporate that would love to shut people up..so of course, you have guns, you get gun crime. Lesser of two evils I say.
And as I said, this boy woulda got a gun no matter what.
But again, my caveat - no automatic weapons, no handguns, no armor piercing ammo..all off the table.
Furthermore - in European countries where guns are illegal guns can and still are had by criminals and terrorists and used in crimes. Sorry bro, as a legal citizen of a sovereign nation I want the right to own a weapon.
- FrdmOfSpch0
I love Pinker :)
Yes, on a macro level, the world is becoming more "civilised" and more ordered.
In the US, however, it seems there's a certain level of violence that people are willing to accept as OK in order to hold onto their 2nd amendment rights. As has been shown by this thread.
- aktive0
Maybe we should call this the too much free time thread
- TheBlueOne0
And despite what the media feeds us on a daily basis (violence!! Danger!! Death!!) and what the politicians try to argues for pure political means, and despite horrific incidents like VT, as a species we are in fact getting less and less violent over time:
- FrdmOfSpch0
you misunderstand me blueone
the denial of responsibilty is when you refuse to accept that the effect, the byproduct of the second ammendment if you will, leads to a gun "menace" in society.
At least thats what i assumed when you said "Movies didn't cause this, video games didn't cause this, and gun laws didn't cause this - it's just plain old fucked up human crap."
- mrdobolina0
speak for yourself, drama queen
- TheBlueOne0
because your attachment to guns because of your distrust of democratic government means you will not accept the responsibility, that that ideological position leads to a gun menace II society.
Which, i guess, you can say you are willing to put up with because you dont trust democratic civilian government.
But then to say it has no bearing on incidences such as this, is a denial of responsibility.
FrdmOfSpch
(Apr 19 07, 06:59)Wholeheartedly disagree with you..don't even see where your argument of "denial of responsibility" comes into what you just wrote.
And I distrust democratic government as much as the guys who wrote the constitution did - you know they kinda put that clause in there for a reason. I trust democracies, I just don't trust governments (please, yes, enlighten me on a government worth trusting 100%..list historical examples please.)
And again what "responsibility" am I not accepting? There are millions of guns out in the public right now - yet only one incident like this. Do the math. The responsibility lies in the man pulling the trigger.
- FrdmOfSpch0
check out the state of this guys face/head.. meaaat
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1...
lowimpakt
(Apr 19 07, 07:00)yes, it's sad. Americas answer to the gun problem is even more guns.
Part of the problem is that in America we think that ours is the most perfect example of a nation and society which needs to be viciously exported around the world cos we're the best yo. It what leads us to dead-end foreign policy adventures.
I weep for my country when i think that god is just.
- lowimpakt0
I want logistics you idealogues. Bonseff has the best plan yet.
mrdobolina
(Apr 19 07, 07:00)
---------design guns to look like dildos?
- lowimpakt0
europeans decided guns weren't that cool when a war killed 10's of millions of us.
we just get high and have too much sex and fight outside pubs.
- mrdobolina0
so what is the plan to ban the guns then?
I want logistics you idealogues. Bonseff has the best plan yet.
- lowimpakt0
check out the state of this guys face/head.. meaaat