Creationist Lies
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- Jaline0
*ahem
I mean 779.
Now this is 780
- k770
go Jaline!!
- k770
"4. God, however, does not have a beginning, so He does not have a cause."
yo, didn't God say: "i am the alpha, i am the omega" ?
- trainer0
Now you've conflated ID with creationism. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of logic or science to the position: "absolutely everything MUST have a cause . . . EXCEPT our God!" Keep sprinkling in the phrase "by definiton!" too, it makes it sound much more authoritative.
- TheTick0
No, Tick, logic dictates this. matter and life do not spring from nothingness.
Discipler
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I wasn't talking logic. I was speaking of an underlying phiosophical principal of a civilizations worldview. You know like christianity has.
- discipler0
yes, the first and the last. Beginning = preeminent. In the context of the passage, He is saying he is before all things and will be after all things.
- Mimio0
discipler, what created God then? You make the same error you're accusing others of making. You just stick magic-religious-hokum at the end of your "logic".
- discipler0
trainer, what do you think caused matter and irreducibly complex organisms? Since it all had a starting point... where did it come from?
- kld0
It is illogical and downright absurd to suggest that something came from nothing.
discipler(Jun 15 05, 10:53)
so this designer who came from nowhere, took a bunch of nothing and created all the heavens and earth. Sounds like magic to me.
Then to create a less than perfect physical world after all that work just seems like a failed attempt. I give the designer a A- for concept and a C- for execution.
- TheTick0
Discipler I bet some of those other gods that were Yahweh's buddies mentioned in the early bible might be able to tell us where he came from...and they're there in the scripture...
- Mimio0
discipler, it's far more honest to say that you don't know something than place a god at the limits of your understanding.
- TheTick0
"During these times, Baal and his consort Ashtoreth were worshiped by many Israelites both in Samaria (Israel) and Judah even after the captivity, mainly by those who remained in the conquered lands. Yahwists like Ezra finally purged the Israelites (by then known as Jews) of all Baal residuals and even forced them to give up their Baalish wives and families (see Ezra 9-10 ). Ezra's purging of Baal appeared to be complete. It was his wish to erase Baal completely from the Israelite past; however, the residuals in Genesis 1 and 3 continue to remind us not only of Israel's polytheistic past but of the Canaanite origins of Judaism.
Using archaeological evidence on one hand and biblical between-the-line implications on the other, the following conclusions support the premises stated above:
(1) Most of the Israelites at the time of the exodus (about 1250 B.C.) were already located in the Canaanite area, which, incidentally, was at that time a part of Greater Egypt. A relatively small number, probably only one tribe (Levi), were in Egypt. Exodus 1:15 , for example, says that only two midwives were needed to attend the births of Hebrew children. Furthermore, the Israelites needed divine help to defeat a small seminomadic tribe (Ex. 17:8-13 ) in contradiction to the later editor's estimate of an army of 600,000 men (12:37 ) besides children (and women?).
(2) This relatively small group of Israelites from the outside (Egypt proper) formed some type of symbiotic relationship with the much larger inside group (which consisted of Israelites and Canaanites, the so-called mixed multitude) to form the "12 tribes" (when they were not fighting each other).
(3) The outside group was the Yahwist cult, the inside group the Baal cult. The struggle between the two groups went on for well over 500 years.
(4) Apparently it was not until the reign of Josiah that the Yahwist group was able to achieve dominance. The "lost book" of Deuteronomy was discovered in the house of the LORD (2 Kings 22:8 ), and the Passover was reinstituted after a lapse of 500 years (if indeed it even existed before then). The golden calf (symbol of the Kings of Israel) from the reign of Jeroboam was suppressed (2 Kings 23:15 ).
(5) Biblical scholars agree on how the Pentateuch was put together. The sources were (E) Elohist, (J) Yahwist, (P) Priestly, (D) Deuteronomist, and (R) Redactor. The last two were written to dovetail with the first two, and the writers tried to do two things: (1) eliminate all contradictions, and (2) eliminate all vestiges of the Israelite primitive past of pagan polytheisism. "
- k770
so this designer who came from nowhere, took a bunch of nothing and created all the heavens and earth. Sounds like magic to me.
Then to create a less than perfect physical world after all that work just seems like a failed attempt. I give the designer a A- for concept and a C- for execution.
kld
(Jun 15 05, 11:12)creating something out of nothing is what i do everyday. that's what "creativity" is.. that's what creation is.. magic? hell yeah! and miracles...
- JazX0
Hey, hey Robespierre's. Back to the Extinction talk. If they laws are changing, even gradually, over time, don't you think they could have accelerated some Catastrophic event. There have been many.
- trainer0
You are changing the subject. Evolution doesn't attempt to answer this, and neither will I. At the same time, you try hide behind a position for which the question isn't even valid - "everything needs a cause EXCEPT God!"
Evolutionary biologists have already produced answers for the irreducible complexity objection anyway (you didn't cite a specific one here but much of it is not irreducible at all).
- TheTick0
And science doesn't really like "something from nothing " either, but it does look for Order and how it arises. I like the body of thought that examines how the very structural laws of the universe provide order and matter and energy, and life itself might be a common and even expected particular state of order for material in the universe.
This implies - unlike the phiosophical side of Christianity - which basically implies that we are sinful and life is seperate and special form the universe, and man special but detached from god - but rather that we humans and the life here on earth are expected and part and parcel of the fabric of the universe and are at home here.
I like Stuart Kaufman's work on this and his work on Emergent Properties.
http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/kor…
http://www.ucalgary.ca/oncampus/…
- gruntt0
i dare you all to quit this thread at 800.
- Jaline0
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- Jaline0
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