Photographers
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- lumedia
Any photographers out there that are working professionally? Commercial and Editorial.
How did you break into it? How are you doing now. What were you doing beforehand?
I am just looking for some insight on what other people have gone through when starting a career as a photographer. I have been thinking about it for a long time now and I think I just need some justification to go for it (or not)
- vaxorcist0
I assisted for years, and worked in photo labs, becoming part of a community of people who often share ideas about negotiation tactics with clients, etc.... The biggest things I got from assisting were watching how seasoned pro's would handle client interactions, egos, last minute changes, and other surprises.
A HUGE thing to remember is this is NOT a business where you're "suddenly successful and never have to worry again" it's a business where you constantly have to put yourself and your self-esteem out there, contacting potential clients, doing lots of stuff that may or may not pay off....
I see from your profile that you have some tearsheets, as a designer, you're in a great position, many, many photographers have to hand off their images to an agency or client who may submerge the image into a layout that's not quite flattering to the photograph....
Being a designer and a photographer isn't bad at all... it's great to have multiple streams of income, and many photographers have multiple types of clients/work too...
It used to be that you had to specialize, now I think you have to diversify, but not too clumsily... saying "you do it all" is not good, but saying you "specialize in x and y" is better.... it also used to be that photographing weddings was considered low-life, like selling used cars, but the standard of work quality for great wedding photographers is good these days, and it can be a good gig if you're good at not just the photography but the client interaction...
I have multiple specialties and multiple websites, I co-create images with a couple of art directors I've worked with for years for use in heavily manipulated ad campaigns, as well as also photograph business events / conferences and weddings, totally different loooks, but I love them all.... Photographing lawyers is also an odd little side business for me...
Note that on almost every job, whether you're an assistant or a photographer, there's a huge chance you'll run into somebody who's asking "how did you break into this business?!?" .. and you get a feeling they want a 10 word answer or so... sometimes you have to try not to laugh...
And on many business client gigs, you run into an executive who said he wanted to do what you do... but... long story, but I'm sure he's not jealous of a photographer's random finances....
It does seem that amateur photographers talk about cameras, whereas pro's talk about client interactions, business ideas, etc...
Estimates and bids are hard, and possibly risky, contracts can be tricky, if you're in an agency now, spend some time learning that side of things from the agency perspective...
Good luck, it's not impossible, but there's no "heaven" moment, you still have to call up people who may not have time to talk to you....
- 23kon0
Nice shots, good skills and a decent portfolio site you've got yourself there.
Good luck with your new career, hope it goes well.
In my opinion there's two types of photographers and i've worked with both kinds. There's those who think of themselves as "arty" people and have a big ego with bills to suit. They'll prefer to take the creative lead on how the photos are shot and turn out then bowk when the design company or client they are working for criticises the images if they are not up to what is expected.
These photographers shouldn't be working commercially and should just stick to what THEY want to do and exhibit in galleries etc.The other type of photographer is the one that follows a creative brief to the tee and whom you can trust to go away and give you exactly what you want. They usually give much more attention to detail in their shoots and will strive for perfection.
Needless to say the latter is the type that I always use.
- vaxorcist0
23kon's right.. sometimes photographing a business conference has more room for arty creativity than an ad shoot....
good art directors know what they want and communicate well... and a layout like that is a blessing, not a curse, as you KNOW what's required.
Some art directors give you a ton of tearsheets as mood boards for something rather different, and guessing what they're after is not so easy... and figuring out their level of photo shoot experience is not what it used to be,as everyone says "I'm a photographer too" these days, but you could ask how many high-budget shoots they've are directed themselves.
If you're aiming for shooting ads, try to go on a few shoots if you can through your designer life, having 10 people on a shoot with MUA's,stylists, and various other client staff trying to escape from the office... and shooting tethered to big monitor in front of a peanut gallery of fashionistas can be a learning experience.... so different from an "artists photo world"
Also note that it's your responsibility as a photographer to make the light right no matter what, on time and on budget, even "available light" photographers have assistants holding reflectors.
- lumedia0
Great words, thanks so much for your opinions.
I have to say though that i am no designer. I actually am working at an agency now doing retouching work. I have worked on images shot by some pretty big names in the photography world. It has been invaluable being a part of the process that makes the images work. Seeing the raw files from great photographers over and over really started thinking to myself, Shit I could do this.
Coming from this background, i do want to get into the commercial work that pays well because i have seen what some of these guys get paid. I know that sounds a bit daft but i want to make a good living. I will always have personal projects to satisfy myself and what i want to do.
I have always had a steady job and the thought of not having a steady income scares the crap out of me.
How do you go about making sure you dont have any big gaps in income?
Do you have a rep?
How much do you rely on your rep for work?
- Iogout0
this is an interesting thread
- lumedia0
@23kon, I see those 2 kinds of photographers over and over. The artsy type you mention can be a nightmare to work with. They think that they are creating art and dont understand that they are working for an ad agency. A commercial photographer should execute the ADs vision first and foremost and usually the AD will want to collaborate with the photographer creatively.
- vaxorcist0
The business model is bulimic in this business.... having a couple of photo markets you serve can help a lot, but it's never like a weekly paycheck. ... I'm in a bit of good run this spring for one part of my market, getting more gigs than last year, but it seems the timeline from self-promotion to calls to pitch to gig can be unpredictable, like planting seeds that may take 6 months to a year to bloom, if at all...
I'm curious, the artsy type photos vs the follow-the-brief photographers.... for those of you who have worked with both types, did the artsy photogs have reps? did the artsy charge more? did the artsy have fancier estimates? or were they both similar in business practices but different in attitudes?
Also note that payment timelines got longer after 2008, especially in some firms.... and I have to resist the urge to buy gear-toys or eat expensively whenever a check comes in... as I don't know when the next one will be in... i use the phrase "spending plan" rather then "budget" and it helps with $$$ self-control....
I diversify, doing corporate event gigs and business portraits, group shots for lawyers magazines, but I don't have to maintain the "Rockstar Photographer" image that some people think they have to portray in order to get a higher day rate. It's great to have a sidelight that pays predictably soon after the shoot when some gigs take a while and need all sorts of paperwork....
I don't have a rep, this depends on what sort of work you're aiming for... I'd rather have a producer help me with estimates and production. Reps take a percentage, and you still have to do a lot of your own PR and such.... I know a number of photographers who USED to have reps and now don't, and a few who still have reps...
If you're retouching images from big-name photographers now, you can probably make a retouching folio, and do some freelance retouching for other high-end photographers as a transitional gig, and also to get to know people...
good luck, you're in a position to get to know agency art buyer psychology and decision making processes... ie why did they hire photog x rather than photog y? lots of us would kill for that insight...
- sadpanda0
Thanks for asking these questions Lumedia. Its been an insightful thread!
- lumedia0
Yes vax, i am in the process of putting together a retouching portfolio now. the same idea crossed my mind.
as far as art buyer psychology: I have no idea why they do what they do. I think a lot of the time the AD will see an image on fffound or something that they like and they just tell the AB that they want that person for their shoot. Other times the AB will make a suggestion based on special skills a photographer might have or quite simply because a certain photographer is hot right now. It was quite painful when everyone was hiring Terry Richardson for everything because i am not really a fan of his style. AB's have a delicate job sometimes because they are the liaison between the agency and the photographer. Sometimes it seems like they forget that they work for the agency, not for the photographer. If an issue arises they always take the side of the photographer which is understandable because i am sure that they have to deal with a lot of big egos out there and they cant have their reputation spoiled.
- ah.. I can imagine the AB's life... the "lottery-winner business model" of "hot this-week" photographers hmm...vaxorcist
- johnny_wobble0
A lot of times, art buyer's have money in mind more than the photographer's specific skills. I can tell you from experience, if an art buyer has a list of approved photogs/studios to assign stuff to, they're looking at rates first.
- martinadolfsson0
Interesting thread, I've been working for 10 + years as a photographer in both Europe and the US and I totally agree with vaxorcist. I don't know how many times I've been on a shoot were the CEO tells me he would quit any day to take up photography...
Lumedia you said: " i do want to get into the commercial work that pays well because i have seen what some of these guys get paid."
Becoming a "big shot" photographer is just like any other luxury brand, even though the images they create might look simple it still requires years of consistent brand building in order to reach that level.
Good luck with your new career!