<-- forever honor
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- J_Treehorn0
I find it sad that alot of the US military equipment used in "Opertation Iraqi Freedom" had 9/11 statements painted on it. It demonstrates how brainwashed and bloodthirsty the military is.
- mrdobolina0
that would be up to the Iraqis to make that page of the innocent casualties...
or maybe you could do it? If you felt so strongly about it, you might.
- unknown0
If you're so quick to point out the casualties we inflicted during the war, why don't you look at CNN today, the unearthing of mass graves near Baghdad-they're estimating at least 11,000 bodies.
Sadaam did that. Civilian casualties. And it's not happening anymore. So, good, or not good?
- js_0
I have recieved a number of emails about my suggestion for the site (most of which have contained alot of anti-bush sentiment and assumptions that I am in support of the war) .. and I can only assume that the authors of these emails have simply not read the post with which i first suggested the link .. in which i said "Despite my objections to the very reasons these Marines fell, and the legitamacy of our true objectives in Iraq, I cannot deny the beauty and skill with which this tribute was created. very well done."
If you read that text, you should quickly realize that I am fervently opposed to this military action, almost all of the Bush Administration's ridiculous gunboat diplomacy policies, and its utterly ludicrous propaganda tools fed to us through the media. I cannot stress just how passionate I have been about this in the recent months.
With that said, that does not make the deaths of these soldiers in combat any less legitimate. They are merely the loyal acting hands to a rather unintelligent head. These men died believing that they were defending freedom, we may not believe this is so, but that does not mean that it is hypocritical to honor their deaths. You do not have to believe in a message to appreciate the beauty with which it was stated.
- jpea0
i nominate _js's last post as probably the most thoughtful and well-planned post that i've seen on NT.
- paulrand0
my only point wasn't to debate the rightness or wrongness of the cause, or the heroism of those who died, but how this very seductive image of war would change with a different selection of images
- exador0
someone mentioned that if you cared so much, why not make a site for the opposing viewpoint..
or something like that..good idea.
I've been designing small spot graphics and headers for http://www.zmag.org for about a year or 2 now...
nothing fancy...
but just it allows me to do something positive...even if it is a small thing...nothing wrong with a lil pro-bono work here and there...
specially if it's for a good cause..
- spk0
js_
that said - if someone put together a beautiful site celebrating russian soldiers who died fighting in chechnya does it deserve a link and praise?
its nice and people who died in war should be remembered .. that logo at the top gives the site away for what it is: shameless propaganda - for the us military. they are using the lives that were lost (unfortunately for weapons of mass destruction that appear to have never existed) for their own purposes -
PROPAGANDA:
The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
- bhawk0
Ya I agree with spk. There are a few wars on that list that should not be glorifed. The boxer rebellion for example. That was a blantant attempt at American Imperialism to surpress an attempt by the Chinese to over come oppression and slavery in 1900.
- bhawk0
Oh ya and that is one of the reasons why china is such a great place now.
- spk0
the slick videos are repulsive - im sure that is the kind of thing that gets 18 year old kids to sign up... im quite certain it was not the last thing these young guys saw... i may be wrong... but im betting were they alive to tell, they would want young men following in their footsteps to see what ware is really like:
- bhawk0
Man, those pics are very disturbing. I'm speechless.
- js_0
spk
first of all, yes. I feel that anyone who falls while serving their country in the military deserves a proper tribute. Despite personal opinions about the administration that makes the final decisions, the soldiers are cannot be held responsible for acting on the interest of thier commanding officers. If you have ever served in a military, or spoken with anyone who has .. you will quickly learn that while fighting in any combat situation, you care not for what policies are being furthered, you care only for your life and the lives of the men next to you.
I believe that in a developed society war should absolutely not be a foregone conclusion, and that as intelligent human beings, logic and rationale should prevail in diplomatic situations. Bloodshed is the most absurd form of "pretection of liberties" and the propaganda put out by the Bush administration is deplorable .. noone can attest that. But my extreme disagreement with my President and his staff is to be taken up with him, not with the soldiers that have chosen to serve their country as best they can. I will not be dehumanized to a single lost life in this situation.
I absolutely believe, that each and every major publication that prints a single image of a celebrating Iraqi, or flag waving pro-war American, should have featured directly next to it the children with the burns cover 90 percent of their body, the families with limbs lost and homes destroyed.
And as far as the Boxer Rebellion example ... when will you be able to see the difference in the weapon and the wielder of the weapon. You lumping the soldiers into the same category as the Generals and Commander in Chief is the same as blaming guns and the NRA for murders. I hate to be so cliche, but guns don't kill people, people do. Soldiers don't colonize and impose foreign policy where it is unwanted, Presidents do.
You have to allow your humanity to understand that these were LIVES LOST. These were human beings that died and they did it serving a country they believed in. Now an unintelligent person will assume from that statement that I am claiming that the thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians are underserving of a similar tribute. (it is this ignorance that has led us to political correctness and the decorum of placing warnings on every opinion stated). The Iraqi civilians AND soldiers all deserve a tribute far beyond what these 64 marines recieved for the price they paid. They deserve an immortal memorial in Baghdad so that all Iraqi's that come after this can pay tribute to their brethren that were forced to willingly or unwillingly give thier lives in the liberation of thier country.
We are not holding a debate as to whether this war was just, or legitamate (i believe that it was neither) .. this debate is about whether those who see this as propaganda are demeaning the 64 lives lost, or is it the creators of this tribute.
I believe a memorial in any form should be taken at face value, and not looked at as a loaded thought weapon. The Vietnam Memorial does not serve a purpose to justify the USA's involvement there .. it is merely a permanent reminder of the lives lost there. Seeing it as anything else is assuming too much.
- spk0
_JK
you are missing the point - and what troubles me about the site - it is an advertisment for the marines (and perhaps ONVOY and Periscope) masquerading as tribute to those men who lost thier lives. to have bundled the slick videos (each equally offensive) with a tribute to those men is as bad as handing out recruiting brochures at the gates of arlington cemetery... in my opinion, the designer and periscope overstepped their bounds on this tribute and have crossed into a grey area of tasteless promotion of armed service and vis a vis war (just or otherwise)
i think howard zinn puts things in proper perspective here:
- spk0
its nice - im still uncomforable with it being a thiny disgused marines recruitiing promo.
- jevad0
why the fuck link it again for christs sake?
- kpl0
once it was in the pbs, now it's in ntb.
I think js and spk are absolutely right, except for the part where what the ultimate meaning of the piece is...which will lead to a semiotics debate that the size of which can collapse the universe. which for the sake of my asshole I will not start.
- jevad0
nah - I am sure jk already linked it in the NTB before.....