Coronavirus
Coronavirus
Out of context: Reply #6108
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- Chimp0
"Pfizer and Moderna mRNA COVID-19 vaccines were associated with an increased risk of serious adverse events of special interest.
The excess risk of serious adverse events of special interest surpassed the risk reduction for COVID-19 hospitalization relative to the placebo group in both Pfizer and Moderna trials"
- So the risks of the vaccine outweighed the risks of covid.Chimp
- https://i.imgur.com/…utopian
- Utopian, do you have anything constructive to say? Do you disagree with the paper? One of the authors was the senior editor of the BMJ.Chimp
- Things that stand out to me: 1. Abdominal pain and diarrhea are among the "serious adverse effects".pusherbot
- 2. Mentions another paper to say "No reduction in mortality in mRNA vaccine trials" which is news to me if true.pusherbot
- That said, I agree with the request made, that "Full transparency of the COVID-19 vaccine clinical trial data is needed", if it is in fact not available.pusherbot
- “ This is a preprint article, it offers immediate access but has not been peer reviewed.”monospaced
- Interesting points pusherbot. Mono, this has been authored by scientists from UCLA, the senior editor of the BMJ and scientists from Stanford.Chimp
- Pusherbot, here is a link to a summary of the paper that discovered that the mRNA vaccines didn’t lower over all mortality.Chimp
- https://brownstone.o…Chimp
- @mono, let’s stop pretending peer review works. https://www.vox.com/…Chimp
- “ Peer review: a flawed process at the heart of science and journals” https://www.ncbi.nlm…Chimp
- Yes I can read. Jesus.monospaced
- And let’s stop pretending peer review isn’t important. Fuck off with your bullshit.monospaced
- Mono, are you sating this paper is bullshit?Chimp
- Mono, it feels like you have a religious attachment to the Covid vaccines that blinds you from any science that contradicts you point of view.Chimp
- The logical response would be to read this paper and then update your thinking based on it, rather than an emotional based response.Chimp
- Im not saying this is bullshit. I’m saying that your claim that peer review isn’t necessary is bullshit.monospaced
- I did read the paper. I also noticed the FIRST THING it says is that it’s not peer reviewed. Surely it will be. No need to call names like a childish bitchmonospaced
- My copy paste wasn’t emotional. Perhaps you imagined something I said and that triggered YOUR emotional response and name calling. Grow up.monospaced
- And all I want to say is that something being peer reviewed isn't the most important thing here, hence the articles I posted :)Chimp
- isn't it just saying that the tests weren't complete? we kind of knew this already, it was an emergency approval.uan
- So do you admit the paper isn't BS and the vaccines could do more harm than good? Or do you disagree with the paper?Chimp
- the other thing that comes to mind is, they were approved also by other states, EU or Switzerland...so there were other experts eyes on the data before use.uan
- It seems like you have an allergic reaction to anything negative posted about the covid vaccines. It's best to keep calm and have an open mind on the subject.Chimp
- further investigation is good to prepare for future crisis. Let's hope this doesn't get trapped in black and white thinking and gets ignored.uan
- A lot can be learned from the whole pandemic. Here in Madrid we never totally locked down again after 2020. BCN did but their numbers were no better.Chimp
- We should also be careful about any new laws brought in that are still in force now that there is no emergency.Chimp
- Also BCN was no better off for introducing draconian Chinese style vaccine passports.Chimp
- I think my allergic reaction is to ppl who ignore that everything that was done (just or not) was to protect the highest amount of human lives possible.uan
- even if ppl or institutions in power abuse this events for their own advantage, we did what we did and we only can try to be better in the future.uan
- uan, I was referring to our friend Mono.Chimp
- As you said, now is the time to critique the response and hopefully those in power won't make the same mistakes again.Chimp
- In Austria, major human rights were broken to force people to take an experimental vaccine that perhaps now turns out be more harmful than Covid.Chimp
- How many countries are giving compensation to those killed or hurt by the vaccines?Chimp
- Will the vaccine companies pay the compensation? https://www.bmj.com/…Chimp
- Is this for all variants? There was a sharp drop in infections and deaths after the vaccines were rolled out initially, now it seems they do fuck all for new_niko
- ...strains and obviously could do more harm since they’re ineffective._niko
- @niko It’s taking data from when the vaccines were rolled out. Another paper discovered that the vaccines didn’t lower all case mortality.Chimp
- As time goes on and more people have reactions against it the risk / benefit will decrease even further. Plus Covid is no where near as dangerous as it was.Chimp
- It could also be a contributing factor to the rise in non Covid excess deaths that are quite a bit above average.Chimp
- Chimp even if this paper is accurate...it doesn't say people are dying from the vaccines. It says there is an increase of 10-15 adverse events per 10,000 peopleyuekit
- The all cause mortality doesn't conclude that people are dying from the vaccine but this paper does.Chimp
- yuekit: "Pfizer and Moderna mRNA COVID-19 vaccines were associated with an increased risk of serious adverse events of special interest"Chimp
- Where does it say people are dying? Based on their list, "adverse event of special interest" can include having a headache, nausea, etc.yuekit
- It could also include something more serious like myocarditis but it's an increase of 10 for Pfizer, 15 for Moderna, in a group of 10,000 people.yuekit
- And in a way it's like...what is even the news here? I thought everyone knew some people got side effects from the vaccine.yuekit
- If you read it death is one of side effects.
"An SAE was defined as an
107 adverse event that results in any of the following conditions: death;..."Chimp - It's a known fact that the vaccines have killed people. I know two people.Chimp
- I'd say its big news that the vaccines have more risk than infection as this paper states. It puts into question the whole draconian vaccine passport nonsense.Chimp
- Yeah I remember you mentioning that. But this study absolutely does not point to people dying from the vaccine.yuekit
- If you take this study seriously, what it says is that there's a very small increase in adverse health events from the vaccine.yuekit
- The more controversial claim would be that the vaccines barely do anything at all to reduce hospitalizations, and therefore even this small increase makes themyuekit
- a net negative. But that's the proper interpretation, not that it is killing people.yuekit
- It includes death in the SAE definition.Chimp
- And this second claim seems questionable, how to square it with the fact that unvaccinated people are hospitalized at such disproportionate numbers?yuekit
- It theoretically includes death but did people die?yuekit
- So if there are more adverse health events from the vaccine than infection you're better off not taking it. Unless you're in a high risk group.Chimp
- OK I found it, the study claims that 31 people died in the vaccine group, 30 people died in the placebo group.yuekit
- Well here is one: https://www.bbc.com/…Chimp
- So again if accurate this would suggest vaccines aren't saving lives at all but it also means people taking the vax aren't dying at a higher rate than normal.yuekit
- If you're gonna cite a study I think you've got to stick with what the study actually says and not just general message of "vaccines are bad" right?yuekit
- We will have to wait a few more years to see how many more people die or have serious side effects of the vaccine. No one really knows.Chimp
- The paper says that there is more risk of having a serious adverse reaction from taking the vaccine than being infected by covid.Chimp
- Yeah that's a more accurate summary -- or being hospitalized with COVID rather.yuekit
- Also worth pointing out this study seems to have been heavily criticized by other scientists.yuekit
- It brings into question measures like draconian vaccine passports and the shaming of people who didn't want to take them.Chimp
- I'm not trying to be pro vaccine shill or whatever but I think it's worth reading some of the criticisms.
https://sciencebased…yuekit - https://respectfulin…yuekit
- Basically it seems like they are criticizing the study for not comparing the proper things. Like the study counts total number of adverse events, which can beyuekit
- multiple events per person...you get heartburn but also a headache. But then when counting COVID hospitalizations it only counts once.yuekit
- So yeah, I could see how that could seriously distort the numbers. Not saying which side is right or wrong but I think it has to be squared somehow with theyuekit
- I think it will come under a lot of criticism but that doesn't mean it's not valid.Chimp
- real-world data that shows vaccinated people being hospitalized and dying from COVID at a much lower rate.yuekit
- But are also then dying or having adverse side effect from the vaccine.Chimp
- The real world data says that the mRNA vaccines didn't decrease all cause mortality compared to the AstraZeneca vaccines.Chimp
- Then the AstraZeneca vaccine was stopped because it was dangerous for younger people.Chimp
- I'm talking about hospital records that show people who are hospitalized for COVID are disproportionately not vaccinated.yuekit
- https://www.cdc.gov/…yuekit
- And there is the same thing in pretty much every country, state, city. How do you reconcile that with the vaccine not working?yuekit
- So the point here is that the vaccines protected against Covid but caused other problems that neutralised their overall usefulness.Chimp
- But who’s to say any adverse reaction on their list is equally bad as being hospitalized for COVID?yuekit
- I dunno...I think the criticisms of the study have some merit. Read the links I posted.yuekit
- chimp you're misinterpreting the abstract. looking for information wish to see. adverse effects are *temporally* *associated.*sarahfailin
- chimp, you seem to be a little too excited about the possibility that you are right on this. Gonna be a lonely planet when everyone's dead.bogue
- Chimp : https://youtu.be/dxg…bogue
- I don’t know how many scientific papers it will take to convince the religious that these “vaccines” were not what were promised.Chimp