The Russia thread.
The Russia thread.
Out of context: Reply #233
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- yuekit1
Ukraine (44 million people) has no historical legitimacy or right to exist...but I'm going to recognize these tiny, completely made up "republics" that have no historical basis at all as new countries. Even his own propaganda statement is self-refuting.
- Wow lots of Putin fans still around here...downvoting doesn't make you any less wrongyuekit
- No fan of Putin but that's a ridiculous interpretation of the speechkingsteven
- Why is it ridiculous? Surely you don't disagree that all of this is entirely cynical?yuekit
- Russia itself would never in a million years tolerate an insurgency or breakaway republics within their own country.yuekit
- it's a massive oversimplification of what he said to come to a conclusion that he refuted an earlier statement. there are many disputed territories in the worldkingsteven
- it's no different from the ROI recognising my dual citizenship.kingsteven
- did you read the whole speech, it's daft and scary but "those who seized and hold power in Kyiv" is hardly rejecting the sovereignty of Ukrainekingsteven
- I'm not personally at all against self-determination or new states coming into existence. It's just hypocritical to diminish Ukraine which has a much longeryuekit
- history. Putin wrote this entire essay last summer arguing that Russia and Ukraine are the same thing.yuekit
- and one country recognising the independence of a disputed region is nothing new. There wont be any maps redrawn elsewhere until akingsteven
- referendum, which Ukraine recognises needs to happen.kingsteven
- The problem is that Russia itself has been fueling the insurgency. Hundreds of Russian soldiers have reportedly died in Donbasyuekit
- you're going to need to show me the bit where he diminished Ukraine. that bit about decommunisation is worth discussing but I don't think that was what he waskingsteven
- implyingkingsteven
- It was on the backlog, the scrum master assigned the fucking of Ukraine to this sprint.********
- http://en.kremlin.ru…yuekit
- Also in the NYT article above: “Modern-day Ukraine was in full and in whole created by Russia." So reason to say that other than to diminish their legitimacy.yuekit
- *No reasonyuekit
- He's also denying the Maidan revolution and subsequent elections as real and referring to those "who seized power in Kyiv" as you posted yourselfyuekit
- While recognizing these tiny states where separatists funded by himself seized power and drove out anyone elseyuekit
- It's one thing to recognize a disputed territory, another to help create the disputed territory yourself and then seize it.yuekit
- he is not referring to the modern Russian state in that statement, in the next line he explains he is refering to the bolchavicskingsteven
- i'm not disputing that anyone involved is not a cunt, or there is not hidden meaning. i'm explaining why i'm downvoting your post for oversimplifying the speechkingsteven
- I don't think it matters, USSR was just one incarnation of the Russian empire right?yuekit
- Also read the article I posted above posted on Kremlin's website. I'm not saying he plans to annex all of Ukraine, just that he is massively hypocritical.yuekit
- as i said earlier, i think that statement is just a lead in to the statement on decommunisation. ukrainians confusing independence from communismkingsteven
- with independence from an (arguably) decommunised modern russian statekingsteven
- i say arguably because i just read hayoths comment lolkingsteven
- Look around the world and you will find there is almost nowhere that Russia or Putin recognizes popular sovereigntyyuekit
- lol.
so these countries are fucking each other that goes down to giving voting rights to people living in border territories.******** - They side with China against Taiwan, with Assad against Syrian autonomous regions, they support the Myanmar junta, etcyuekit
- territorial claims placed on religious foundations don't go well in the modern world.********
- It's only in these tiny barren regions of Eastern Ukraine where no referendum has even been held that Putin is concerned about the so-called popular will.yuekit
- You're kidding if you think there is any sincerity at all behind this. It's just a maneuver to grab some territory from Ukraine.yuekit
- that article is from July last year when Russian and the Ukrainian state were in agreement on a Ukrainian led reunification referendum in Donetskkingsteven
- implying that Ukraine never had a tradition of genuine statehood is not the same as not recognising the current Ukrainian govtkingsteven
- I think it's clear he is doing both. But even if you zero in on not recognizing the current government it's still contradictory.yuekit
- The Maidan protest while it had some support from USA was a genuine popular uprising. Zelenskyy was later elected with over 70% of the vote.yuekit
- It's the same old story of authoritarian, post-communist states not being able to accept that people simply don't want to be part of their "system."yuekit
- I agree with you that it is not sincere, but think that refutes his alleged paranoia... a lot of interference in the region from all sides is not in thekingsteven
- interests of the people or in peace.kingsteven
- Lots of meddling from all sides but ultimately states such as Ukraine, which is not even a small country, should be able to choose who they align withyuekit
- If none of the former USSR states wants to align with Putin then the inevitable result is that he will feel "surrounded" right?yuekit
- i think he already knows he doesn't have their support. certainly where he may have at the start of the conflict in moldova and belarus...kingsteven
- hammering the pre-communist rus line is definitely for an audience in russian speaking regions of ukraine. i think thats why folks are struggling to interpretkingsteven
- the speech as paranoia/ self-refuting /aggressive. he knows like Crimea he needs to project the illusion of enforcing the democratic will of the peoplekingsteven
- Maybe I should have said hypocritical rather than self-refuting. On one hand he's using "self-determination" as a pretext to grab territory, meanwhile heyuekit
- totally ignores self-determination of tens of millions of people in nearby countries, even Belarus his close ally.yuekit
- it may be gullible but i think this peace keeping thing is the same deal. was there ever an explanation why NATO didn't challenge the annexing of crimeakingsteven
- That hypocrisy is separate from Russia having legitimate security concerns. I'm sure they do, but unclear how grabbing this territory of Ukraine addresses it.yuekit
- And beyond that I don't think the people who say Putin wants to recreate a Russian empire of some sort are wrong.yuekit
- after a rebel led referendum, where they like - errr 'well it may be bullshit but it's not 90% bullshit' very odd situation to let developkingsteven
- heh, sorry got in between there. i do agree, i just think he might not be that unhinged and realise already that projecting stability is his only routekingsteven
- by security he may be referring to his ability to control the narrative in the region (information being the most utilised weapon of Moscow)kingsteven
- NP, I actually think with Crimea the evidence suggests the population is pro-Russia. It was more the way Russia went about it that the world objected to.yuekit
- And lets remember Crimea and Donbas are both valuable territory from strategic and resource perspective.yuekit
- Assuming they become part of Russia eventually he's impoverishing Ukraine, the poorest country in Europe, even moreyuekit
- the idea that international peace keeping forces might be deployed to a region to fight people from that region while putin holds off ukraine on the border :-skingsteven
- surely he knows he's better holding his ground now. and prodding and waiting for the rest of the world to fuck it up.kingsteven
- Donbas takes its name "from an abbreviation of the term Donets Coal Basin" and has one of the world's largest coal reservesyuekit
- https://en.wikipedia…yuekit
- i think all the regions in the south are majority russian speaking and there's a good chance if democracy prevailed would reunifykingsteven
- yeah, i remember reading about the resources and pipelines etc. it's shitty that its a motive and it's a motive on all sideskingsteven
- I'm off to bed, maybe not best to get in to etymology of 'The Ukraine'. but I sure hope I am not awoken by an early sunrisekingsteven
- After watching Putin's speech, I think the proper way to understand is... he says Ukraine was invented by the Bolsheviks and if you really want decommunizationyuekit
- we'll show you what this means. It's some dry humor, he's essentially saying that decommunization would mean Ukraine no longer exists.yuekit
- thats not what 'decommunisation' means, he's referring to the laws that removed communist (and nazi) symbolism and names in ukraine from 20yrs agokingsteven
- he's essentially calling the ukrainian state no better than communists. the line drilled in russia is that the russian speaking ukrainians have been abandonedkingsteven
- so he's saying just because you remove the symbolism doesn't mean you're not fascists.kingsteven
- "Well, that suits us just fine." is interesting point because he's demonstrating that his regime does not value communist nostalgia within the insurgentskingsteven
- ie. he's trying to make it seem like a humanitarian cause for peacekeeping, rather than supporting the political views of the insurgentskingsteven
- i was wondering if he's also popped this in to remind us they're just oligarchical capitalists that accept communist symbolism as part of their history,kingsteven
- but i really think this was to reassure russians and ukrainians that russia's intentions are not those of the insurgentskingsteven
- sorry, going over myself there. cooking dinner hahkingsteven
- Sure that's what "decommunization" strictly means, but then he's making a joke to rubbish Ukraine's right to exist was my interpretation. Putin loves jokes :)yuekit
- I'm not the only to interpret it that way, everyone from the New York Times to Meduza (Russian news site) is saying he seemed to dismiss Ukraine's legitimacy.yuekit
- https://twitter.com/…yuekit
- https://twitter.com/…yuekit
- To be fair he didn't outright say he wanted to annex the entirety of Ukraine, but it lays the groundwork for "regime change" if he decides to go that far.yuekit
- i mean, putin would seem to have been really specific about russia v leninism v modern russia and ukraine v ukraine state then specific about ukrainiankingsteven
- decommunisation. i'd say it's much more likely he's referring to the hypocrisy of achieving democracy repressing free speech through ukraine's decommunisationkingsteven
- policies. when he's been so specific about everything else. i do agree his plan is to reintegrate what he can.kingsteven
- I guess we'll find out what he meant...can't say I'm looking forward to it lol. At minimum seems like he will attempt to seize the eastern part of Ukraine.yuekit
- Well just after I post that...full on bombing of the entire country seems to have started.yuekit
- Wow I didn't expect troops via Belarus, they do seem to be attacking military targets at the minute.kingsteven