China
China
Out of context: Reply #514
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- yuekit1
Taiwanese journalist writes about the "anti-imperialist" left's naive view of China
"Many western leftists remain unable to conceptualize any imperial or capitalist power outside of the US and therefore romanticize or downplay China’s authoritarianism because it seems to them at least an alternative to US global hegemony...What this reflects more than anything is the provincialism of the western Left—which inevitably centers the West, sees no other actors of concern in the world, and sees anything that is not the US through a rose-tinted lens, no matter how authoritarian they may also be. "
- I mean, Taiwan aka the Republic of China, claims suzerainty over all of China proper and vice versa... like who's imperialist what now...?Khurram
- https://www.newworld…Khurram
- China never built an overseas empire even when it was the most powerful nation on earth for a millennia.Khurram
- But was the subject of repeated imperialist assaults by foreign powers for centuriesKhurram
- //but I like his tone denegrating all "Western lefties" the right wing nationalist toolKhurram
- CONTEXT: Taiwan was cleaved from China by the Japanese imperial war machine.Khurram
- tell that to tibet and xinjianghotroddy
- Isn't the idea of any country being inherently peaceful kind of ridiculous? In reality modern day China absolutely did come into being through a process ofyuekit
- violent expansionism.
https://en.wikipedia…yuekit - Why do you think there are all these issues with the border regions of China (Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan)? It's the legacy of that.yuekit
- As far as Taiwan goes, it was colonized by the Dutch, the Spanish, the Chinese during the Qing Dynasty and then the Japanese Empire.yuekit
- So Taiwan was actually an example of overseas Chinese imperialism, granted they did not get very far but it's just wrong to think China didn't engage inyuekit
- warmongering same as any other powerful country. Modern day Vietnam and Korea were at one point taken over and controlled by the Chinese empire.yuekit
- it didn't become the third largest country (landmass) by extending olive branches.hotroddy
- https://upload.wikim…yuekit
- I said overseas empire... that's an interesting map, was looking for that. So the country was pretty territorially contiguous for 2000 years, until the late QinKhurram
- when it expanded into the Taklamakan Desert and the Tibetan plateau. (during the age of European Empires)Khurram
- ^^It was the 1st/2nd/3rd largest centrally administrated bureaucracy since 700AD, and territorially contiguous since then.Khurram
- ^^You're right my Chinese friend, the Han Chinese occupied Taiwan following the Japanese defeat and displaced the indigenous population, now making upKhurram
- more than 90% of the Taiwanese population that dream one day of reuniting with mainland China under the nationalist banner.Khurram
- lol...they very much don't dream of that. You have to remember, Taiwan overthrow the KMT dictatorship.yuekit
- China didn't expand overseas because they weren't a nautical country. or do you think it's because they were compassionate and empathetic?hotroddy
- The KMT continues to be by far the largest party in Taiwan and continues to maintain it's goal to reunite with mainland China, although it has had to moderateKhurram
- Today the KMT is a conservative political party that keeps trying and failing to win elections. And the more popular party in Taiwan, the Democratic Progressiveyuekit
- its position in recent years. But it's hilarious reading a Taiwanese Han Chinaman talking about Chinese imperialism LOLKhurram
- Party, is not at all interested in uniting with China.yuekit
- Don't you find that even a little bit ironic, Yuekit - A country ruled by the KMT talking about Chinese Imperialism?Khurram
- @hotroddy, wasn't a nautical country??? what the fuck are you talking about/? LOLKhurram
- It had sailors that sailed the oceans as far as Africa! The adventures of Zheng He are as legendary as those of Sinbad the Sailor!Khurram
- It had ships in the 15th century that DWARFED the 3 vessels Columbus put together, the biggest ship, the biggest maritime sailing culture lolKhurram
- Dude you know NOTHING about history! LOL stop commenting, without even doing the most BASIC research.Khurram
- Wasn't a nautical culture, bwahahahahha,Khurram
- Like I said the KMT dictatorship was terrible, but today the KMT are just your standard shitty center-right party similar to the Tories in the UK or something.yuekit
- Dude, it's called the Republic of China, you can say what you want about baby-Chinese more modest ambitions-- but the irony, is still delicious :DKhurram
- And they are not the largest party, they lost the past two elections to the left-wing DPP. In some polls they are not even the second largest party anymore.yuekit
- God you say some dumb shit hotroddy: https://www.digitalh…Khurram
- Like you have no kowledge of history at all and you get into these debates, like wtf. DO SOME RESEARCHKhurram
- Between 1405 and 1433, Zheng He led seven major expeditions, commanding the largest armada the world would see for the next five centuries. Not until World WarKhurram
- One did the West mount anything comparable." - direct quoteKhurram
- The "Republic of China" thing I think it's actually similar to what happened with North Korea and South Korea.yuekit
- In both cases you had a civil war that ended in a stalemate, and today both the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and the Republic of Korea still claimyuekit
- control over all of the Korean peninsula in their Constitutions...but no one actually believes South Korea has any intention of conquering North Korea.yuekit
- Similarly it would be silly to think Taiwan (the Republic of China) is going to invade the Peoples Republic of China.yuekit
- But you cannot rule out the opposite unfortunately, PRC still threatens invasion and uses Nazi-like rhetoric against Taiwan.yuekit
- sure man sure, Han/Mandarin Chinese nationalists, flee to Taiwan, take over country, displace the indigenous population, complain about Chinese Imperialism mmkKhurram
- ok, I was wrong,. but thank god they we're not conquistadors. The world would be a much authoritorian place if they were.hotroddy
- every country they meddle in turns authoritarian.hotroddy
- Thank god you still have your feels hotroddy. Hold on to your feels.Khurram
- You're not completely wrong...I don't think China ever came close to some of the Western countries in terms of naval power.yuekit
- ^^He said China wasn't a nautical country. He is completely wrong.Khurram
- They weren't sailing around the world as much as the Europeans, which is why people bring up this one guy, Zheng He...who also killed a lot of people BTW.yuekit
- But whatever...if history shows anything it's that any group of people is capable of committing wars and atrocities. Nothing unique to Europeans or Chinese.yuekit
- I take it back. what Yuekit said. :)hotroddy
- That was a lot of notes to read. Conclusion: hotroddy doesn't know wtf he's talking about lolpango
- china has a lengthy history and I don't pretend to know it all. Unlike you pango who doubles down on stupid.hotroddy
- What stupid point have I said here?
Lolpango - I haven't said anything yet. You're just salty cuz I called you out. Lolpango
- you have a short memory pango. I recommend these for you: https://cdn.shopify.…hotroddy
- lol thx you just proved my point.pango
- Khurram. You're some what correctly about taiwan if you're only talking about the taiwan in the 50s. when it was under a dictatorship.pango
- also dictator ship tend to represent "people's voice" when you said 90% of the population want to reunify with the mainland.pango
- the KMT today only cares about self-preservation. but so are other parties in taiwan. everyone just doing it in their own ways.pango
- ironically KMT is the friendliest party towards CCP in taiwan today. it seem they would be ok with china's influence if it means trade stability.pango
- ironic because they were the ones that wanted to "take back china" by force in the 40s and 50s.pango
- Not saying DPP (the current president) doesn't want trade stability. but they're more cautious not to lose their power to self govern.pango
- ya KMT or Chiang Kai-shek was weird... self conflicting. they lay the path for taiwan to become a democratic country.pango
- got cold feet and became dictator ship. then finally went with the democratic election.pango
- Taiwanese people today just want to live in peace and not be bombed/invaded, doesn't seem like much to ask does ityuekit
- too bad the CCP today wants an easier access to pacific ocean. to claim taiwan is the easier option than to invade any other neighbouring countries.pango
- the old china when it was the most powerful country, didn't need to expend too much or have a colony far away. they had all the resource. other country had topango
- come to them to trade.pango
- This shows the current views in Taiwan on unification with PRC
https://esc.nccu.edu…yuekit - The number that wants to unify right now is...1.5%. Total support for unification even in the future is less than 10%.yuekit
- With that huge armada, they should have demanded a tribute from all those lucky people they visited. Oh, wait.Nairn
- it's also a shame those huge flat-bottomed boats didn't traverse blue waters.. oh, wait. They couldn't.Nairn
- So ito summarize, if you use boats to violently expand your borders, it’s bad. But use horses and shit, and all is cool. Got itGnash
- ^^ ha that's pretty how the argument unfolded.hotroddy
- *pretty muchhotroddy
- again. only reason china didn't expend to far away land was because it's too much work and not worth it when they had everything already.pango
- to think they're benevolent is very naïve.pango