Politics

Out of context: Reply #30794

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    On the trump impeachment "obstruction" charges. Can he be found guilty in obstruction when the entire case was all based on lies? Wouldn't that be more entrapment, or is it predatory procedure where you leave a escalade in a poor area with doors open and wait for a "car thief" opportunist to bust.

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    • The point of the investigation was to find out if Russia interfered in the election AND if Trump and his people had something to do with it.yuekit
    • It wasn't made up just to make Trump look bad as you seem to be suggesting. But even if that was the case, you don't get to commit crimes just because you areyuekit
    • what did he obstruct in regards to either item, yuekit?PonyBoy
    • falsely accused of something.yuekit
    • @PonyBoy haha lots of stuff apparently. Listen to the podcast I posted below, explains it all in great detail.yuekit
    • what crimes?PonyBoy
    • Are you even paying attention to reality or are you really hung up on that silliness in your podcast? A heavy reality has already set it... NO COLLUSION, ffs.PonyBoy
    • The IDIOTS that used that moronic dossier are about to pay and you're still hung up on the 'new' cry for justice - 'obstruction'—time to get a grip ukit.PonyBoy
    • *set inPonyBoy
    • Ponyboy, consider the possibility that if you are getting your information on this from conservative news, it may not be the most accurate account.yuekit
    • I'm not saying the "liberal media" has done a great job covering it either BTW.yuekit
    • If we follow this premise, then should Manafort, Flynn, Stone, Gates, and the 30 others be absolved of their crimes? Or just the president?T-Dawg
    • T-Dawg... this was all about 'Russian Collusion'... what one crime did anyone you just listed have to do w/Russia?PonyBoy
    • My question was more for deathboy, but I'm not sure you understood what I'm asking. I'll try to clarify: Are the non-Russia related offenses still crimes?T-Dawg
    • To put it another way, if we found that Trump murdered someone (just using an extreme example), but we found no rus collusion, should Trump be tried for murder?T-Dawg
    • Or does that crime disappear because it wasn't in the context of the investigation?T-Dawg
    • T-Dawg... you're describing the purpose / expected outcome of an actual 'witch hunt'. Dig dig and dig until you find something... it's pretty disgusting.PonyBoy
    • And given that's all there is (process crimes)... it makes sense to investigate how this all began - and I don't think the left is going to like actual reality.PonyBoy
    • How it began was that Russia actually did operate a hacking and propaganda campaign to elect Trump.yuekit
    • You're saying that the U.S. SHOULDN'T have investigated that and tried to figure out what happened?yuekit
    • Or they were too mean in investigating and holding people to account who lied to them? What do you think should have happened?yuekit
    • Of course you investigate Russian fuckery—but those text between FBI guyz Page and Strzok tell a completely different story as to why the investigation beganPonyBoy
    • https://www.washingt…PonyBoy
    • whether or not you buy into the 'coup' conspiracy is up to you... but the conversations between those two do not show any giving a fuck about russiansPonyBoy
    • Yeah but I don't think they were the ones responsible for triggering the Mueller investigation.yuekit
    • Remember it started with Trump fired Comey and said it was "because of Russia" lol. Trump has no one to blame for the stupid investigation but himself.yuekit
    • The bottom line is that the Russians did help get Trump elected, Trump's people met with them and he publicly called for them to hack his opponent.yuekit
    • That's more than enough evidence to investigate, regardless of whether two people within the FBI were biased against Trump.yuekit
    • Comey was fired over his handling of the Clinton email crap... Donny had plenty of recommendations / reasons to fire the guy besides that debaclePonyBoy
    • https://www.theguard…yuekit
    • ^ I don't think that's the only reason they did the investigation, but it's funny that Trump just comes out and says the worst possible thing for himself.yuekit
    • What I see happening is that Trump has zero knowledge of the Constitution or how the law is supposed to work. And you have people around him in law enforcementyuekit
    • who are trying to plan around that and figure out what to do. That then gets reported by conservative media as there being some sort of plot or "coup" againstyuekit
    • Trump. Remember there was some guy high up in his administration (still unknown) who published an anonymous op ed in the NYT saying he ignores ordersyuekit
    • because Trump is constantly asking him to break the law, violate the Constitution etc. That's the reality that is partly described in the Mueller report.yuekit
    • Yeah... I've read and heard all that. The fact is the dude is anonymous so it could simply be you or me for all we know. I guess we hang tight and see.PonyBoy
    • That's some unknown person in an op ed... Strzok and Page are a little less flimsy in terms of anonymity and proof of their actionsPonyBoy
    • lol...I mean we can all see how Trump acts in public, you think in private he suddenly turns into this serious person with respect for the law?yuekit
    • It's not just that op ed. Same thing has been reported by many people. Also documented extensively in the Mueller report.yuekit
    • To get back to deathboy's post, we also have to take into account that the investigation was conducted by an independent committee.T-Dawg
    • Overseen by a republican, appointed by a republican. So what is the incentive of an independent committee to entrap?T-Dawg
    • Independant counsel, not committee. (it's late ;)T-Dawg
    • wow. the way i understand it the steele dossier is the base for any collusion... bu the origins never tested
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    • i have always (and never liked trump) never seen a single strand of reason that shows russia had any influence.
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    • if the foundation and reasons for an investigation are fake as shit, and may be the bait to try and get someone to fuckup defending himself
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    • im more concerned in this that defending trump, but if it is successful will we have these bullshit kangroo courst for future appointees
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    • is this a new norm in political disruption. this is birthers certificate v2
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    • yuekit i think you would like to desperately believe in the russia narrative. but the truth is MSM was wrong
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    • has been and they suffered as much as other beleivers. they just had no relation or ability to accept
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    • created boogeyman and half part rating half part sanity need to believe the shit they sell.
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    • deathboy no offense but it seems like you never bother to look up the most basic facts before launching into these word salad opinion pieces :)yuekit
    • Just to name one example, the Steele memo was not the basis of the investigation. So your entire premise there is wrong.yuekit
    • Have a listen to the podcast I posted below if you would like to really understand what it was about (and what they were and weren't allowed to look into).yuekit
    • i take no offense. fill me in. On what evidence was the russia narrative investigated than? I admit i dont follow much because i see it as all fake as birther
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    • shit. but i do see things liek the mueller report hoping to vindicate but failing
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    • lack of deatils in investigation, and charges brought out based on wether shit is true. i question the honey pot and bait
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    • can obstruction exist in a case that turns out all false? it is a legitimate question
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    • all the obstruction i have seen is based on on a narrative that has been proven false...save you millions and say it never made sense
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    • but the question remains. and is this going to become common place?
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    • I feel like I'm repeating myself here but the investigation was not launched with the premise that Trump was working with Russia.yuekit
    • It was simply trying to find out what happened during the election with Russia's propaganda and hacking campaign.yuekit
    • So your view is what, that the investigation shouldn't have happened at all? Trump was free to obstruct it and break the law because they didn't find anyyuekit
    • evidence of him directly conspiring? Not clear what your actual argument is.yuekit
    • This guy is a conservative but he seems to be more objective and focused on actual Constitutional issues:
      https://twitter.com/…      yuekit
    • https://twitter.com/…yuekit
    • i dont think obstruction charges can or should be held accountable when something is a fraud
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    • How was it a fraud?yuekit
    • Anyway you are just making up laws to make Trump look better at this point lol. There's no possibly legal theory that says you can obstruct an investigationyuekit
    • because you personally think it's unfair. Who would be the one to decide that anyway?yuekit
    • Yeah, fraud would be the wrong term. If Trump wants to counter the investigation it would be something like conspiracy or abuse of process.T-Dawg
    • But then the burden of proof shifts to his lawyers to prove all, which is why he's got Barr setting up his own counter investigation to try and find evidence.T-Dawg
    • But these 'process laws' i.e. lying to FBI/Congress are set in place for a reason. Without them there is no oversight or accountability to anyone in office.T-Dawg
    • I'd bet zero members of the repub house or senate want those laws removed/changed, but they're all happy to play the media game until the next election.T-Dawg
    • not trying to nitpick law but look at it from a larger common sense aspect. if we ignore the steeel dossier as investigation motive.. and jsut pure russia
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    • we see russian click farms creating a shit ton of fake shit they have been doing for a long time. for a lot longer before the election...
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    • we know this though a ton of adweek and traffic monitoring and gaming advertising shit in media buys.
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    • we should also know it has little effect. step back you can see the absurdness in any real effectiveness of any click bait campaign. It is simply denial of
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    • the reality of the situation. however the steele dossier is obviously prop and that is the narrative directed towards trump with wikileaks as cohersion
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    • with the goal, i believe to make trump act wrongly for obstruction charges as a last ditch effort. instead of focusing on obstruction details im more looking at
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    • the big picture. the puppet show on display and how asinine it is, and i cant help but see this russia charde to be soemthing more a kin to african countries or
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    • poor more desperate nations. we dont even have shame or attempt to try to mask things with a high brow spin anymore
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    • maybe fraud is not the right word. Maybe a charade as pretense for political aims no matter how irrational
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