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Out of context: Reply #65462
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- detritus1
Migration's just gotten to the point in recent years that it's now impossible to ignore.
I mean, fuck me - surprising, right?
How shocked people when they realise that you have Two Hundred Thousand plus (!!) people coming in EVERY year, for ever with no consideration for the long game.
Economic migration's not really an excuse, in my opinion, for forever changing the face of a country simply for reasons of cash. Especially when that cash goes to the upper echelons, increasing a country's GDP but keeping GDP per person about the same = higher stress on infrastruture = lower standard of living for most people = unasked-for huper-idealism which ignores base human tribalism.. sorry, 'populism' because fuck me, if the majority of people hold an opinion that doesn't gel with the Suburban intellectual elite, they must be wrong right? idiots!
A little migration's a good thing.
What we've had in the UK for the past 20 years is not.
not for us indiginiees, not for the countries bleeding their brains and efforts to keep First World profit expectations in line.
it's not right, it's not moral, it's not done with anyone's permission.
- I'm a bit hippy and think every culture has a voice and a voice to be honoured and respected. What has happened has only benefited the cooperate companies withmugwart
- a cheaper work force.mugwart
- work in a international company and its incredible to sit with people from all over. Fucking exciting but for some parts of the uk can imaging it not being so.mugwart
- Our problem is that we have a large middle class who hold opinions they don't state out aloud, so the status quo remains unchecked, nobody 'making a fuss'detritus
- migration has far more economic benefits than costs - blame the govt (tory) for not providing adequate infrastructure for UK citizens let alone migrants.fadein11
- Of course too much immigration is not good - how could it possibly be good? But what does this have to do with the original post based on UK no go zones whichfadein11
- about things that they might worry are a 'bit unPC', so things simmer until one day someone takes their nose from the Daily Mail and goes 'hang on', too late.detritus
- do not exist. At all.fadein11
- immigration*fadein11
- Remmber the hoodie crisis? How easily that could've been averted had middle Englanders actually just stuck their nose in and Actually Said Something to the kidsdetritus
- but no, they twitched their curtains, muttered uselessly and now we have laws that ASBO bored children, ffs. We're pathetic.detritus
- If the Right Wing rises in Europe, it's becase everyone spent the preceeding 20 years being cowards.detritus
- hoodie crisis? have you lost your marbles?fadein11
- yes, the one that middle england despaired over years ago - it was a mirage of a crisis, but apparently very concerning, with a generational divide.detritus
- But the English doesn't really have a middle class nor a lower upper class anymore.
Politics here I think is just/ if not worse than what is happening US way.mugwart - the right wing is rising because capitalism/neo-liber... is failing - immigration is largely a by product of that. The system is bigger thanfadein11
- Don't ask me - ask the Daily Mail reading class who were 'bloody well bothered by it all'. *shrug* it's not my crisis. Perhaps not be quite so literal, fade.detritus
- than joe bloggs - aside from a revolution what do you expect average person to do? they will go to work, feed their kids and try to survive. The system needsfadein11
- enemies to blame and looks like you have fallen hook line and sinker mate.fadein11
- and guess what - the right will use exactly those same systems because they don't have an alternative - just like Trump is doing already.fadein11
- Capitalism is failing? What? Neo-liberal 'values' have been shown to be inherently broken, I'd agree. And it's those that espoused them (Blair et al) who ...detritus
- ... are to blame for mass immigration.
I'm sure we can blame the Tories somehow though.detritus - The Daily Mail class are largely 50+ above average income fools who will think like that regardless of what that paper says - that paper is serving their needfadein11
- not vice versafadein11
- "the system needs enemies", gahk. Oh God, 'mate' - stop spouting bilge. As I've said to you beforehand - I've been concerned about migration for decadesdetritus
- ..and as best as I can tell, 'the system' feeds off immigrants, not makes them out to be enemies. Sheesh.detritus
- "enemies to blame and looks like you have fallen hook line and sinker mate."
No I have not. its hard to get arguments out in small paragraphs.mugwart - thats what she said!mugwart
- I agree with you there, about the DM - that's my exact point. Instead of engaging politically, they've hidden behind that fucking paper and kept silent.detritus
- England has a ruling ellite which is so far removed form the real world.
We are feed so much bull shit people dont know what is up nor down.mugwart - I'd point to the DM-reading classes as being the guiltiest parties in all that's gone wrong in this country. Take responsibilty. Act. Fight. Don't hide & whingedetritus
- So I see it people are arguing over semantics.mugwart
- they have nothing to fight for - they are comfortable and largely not affected by any issues the country faces - they love to see their old fashioned values infadein11
- personally I hope the DM readers never take responsibility -- that day would be a scary one ;-) Bad tea and Laura Ashley!mugwart
- print that is all.fadein11
- @mugwart - that wasn't directed at you.fadein11
- @det - so you telling me you DO NOT think immigrants have not been made the enemy in the British media? Where have you been hiding?fadein11
- How long have the tories been in power now? I noticed your comment regarding immigration having grown under new labour. How exactly have the tories got itfadein11
- under control? I would love to hear your thoughts on this.fadein11
- what else is there to argue about on the internet, other than semantics and the same point from three different sides, mugwart? :)detritus
- have been*fadein11
- I'd wager the DM don't espouse values as such, just wet whinging. Certainly I'd not label 'old-fashioned' values as inherently negative. A bit arrogant.detritus
- England has always been governed by command and conquer. Divide it three times and you can control all. I see that's how we have been divided.mugwart
- For a country with such a violent imperialistic history .... we are fucking pacific in our own shores!mugwart
- It's not my opinion - immigration did swell under new labour. it's gone on for so long, there's not enough political capital on either side to dent it.detritus
- unless someone pulls the extreme right wing lever, there's literalyl fuck all anyone can do. Which is why the Far Right is rising, because no one else is.detritus
- btw, i'm not a Tory - I just get irked by left wingers piling all and any blame they can on them. If no Brownomics, then no Austerity. *shrug*detritus
- I would most certainly label old fashioned British values as 100% negative. Those days are over. We are no longer an empire. We are a minor player on the worldfadein11
- (to massively simplify, I admit)detritus
- stage with little influence yet a certain generation still clinging onto the 'greatness' (which actually hardly existed). So yes I would reject all those oldfadein11
- Since when did British Values equate to Empire? You appear to be conflating issues. As happens with the Refugees & Economic Migrant debatedetritus
- fashioned values and try to create a UK equipped for the modern challenges of this globalised/post-capi... world.fadein11
- And ifyou really believe there's nothing of worth in your country's heritage and values, then I am truly sorry for you.detritus
- But they will all be dead soon and that rag of a paper with them.fadein11
- @mugwart :)fadein11
- @det - I like you - and you have argued the case well. And trust me there is a lot, a real lot I love about this country. But they are just not tied to thefadein11
- propaganda and horror of our imperialistic past. But yes - well argued. It's a fucking difficult one. And as you say the right are the only onesfadein11
- tackling it - but I would fight to save all the gains of the left of the past century to have them lost over the idea of "too many foreigners on these shores"fadein11
- so much progress and a huge step back just to protect our borders from people who are often portrayed as the enemy of the state.fadein11
- Still lets not forget our foreign politics/ commercial interests of bombing the shit out of other countries.mugwart
- indeed - the irony of shitting on people and not expecting a strong whiff blowing in our direction.fadein11
- One problem with cultural relativity is a presumption that cultures will be somehow seamlessly compatible.IRNlun6
- Only looking at the positives of migration and cultures, vilifying and ignoring the inherent clash of cultures, greatly contributes to the problem.IRNlun6
- As if different cultures would ever be seamlessly compatible - what is your point now?fadein11
- Becasue it's delusional to think allowing tens of thousands, or 1+ million migrants into a culture won't have significant impacts.IRNlun6
- Presenting it as only a economic positive, ignoring human nature and vilifying anyone who points to problems, makes the situation way worse.IRNlun6
- this isn't new pal - my country has worked through these issues for over half a century. Immigration isn't new and on the most part has been successful in thefadein11
- UK - so yep - what is your point?fadein11
- I guess UK doesn't like people coming to their country, take over and change how they do things...pango
- No pango we like to do the taking over :-)mugwart