UK in/out Europe?
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- lowimpakt0
I think it is important to discuss how laws are made at an EU level.
we're told that it's only faceless bureaucrats and it is undemocratic.
This basic image give an overview.
The European Commission is the part that proposes legislation. The commission is broken up into various offices that relate to key policy areas (similar to departments).
The heads of these offices (commissioners) are national politicians who have been elected in their own country but have been suggested by the current government for the role.
One change is that when they become a commissioner they are required to work in the European interest rather than only their national/party interest.
The commission is constantly interacting with research, interest groups (NGOs, lobbyists), citizen groups etc. to understand what issues should be addressed at a European Dimension (trade, workers rights, climate change, products and food safety etc. )
Once the commission has proposed an idea for legislation there is liaison with national parliaments.
The idea for legislation is then passed onto the directly elected Parliament for debate and to the Council of Ministers (sitting heads of state).
There is then a process of co-decision where the directly elected parliament and sitting heads of government decide on what should be implemented.
Once it has passed this process it has to be implemented by national parliaments.
Many EU laws are "directives". These are more like suggestions on how laws should be implemented. It has been up to each member state to decide on how to implement.
This is a bit of a nightmare because everyone does things differently thus defeating the purpose of working at a transnational level.
There is now a greater emphasis on harmonisation.
so in summary, the commission is headed up by politicians who have been elected by their public but appointed by their national government.
The European parliament is directly elected by each country.
The council of Ministers is made up of the current sitting government.
It's far less about faceless bureaucrats and undemocratic procedure than Farage would lead you to believe.
- jesus that's a long postlowimpakt
- more democratic than UK parliamentkingsteven
- deathboy-2
I probably don't know enough about the EU. But the reasons stated at the top of the last page for separation seem to make sense. If i was there I think I'd vote out.
If the EU was created to resolve conflict and unite a few countries and reduce conflict I can see that as being a good thing. And probably a good idea by the people who had it at the time. It's like a parent who makes there son and daughter who are fighting hug it out. But a good parent shouldn't than chain the siblings hugging together for all eternity out of fear of future conflict.
The major merits of all of society have been created from individuals, and countries can be thought of as individuals in a larger system. As individual countries they can compete and choose to fight entrophy in different ways. And there will be winners and losers. But humanity as a larger picture benefits. VS one "nation or whatever" being run by a set of politicians who might have been good 10 years ago, but entropy happens and bad ones got in. Now you have one giant collective neck to be hung by. So in the end all the plans of creating a great unified system to prevent conflict gets taken over and falls apart. Call it entrophy or incest.
It seems like since WWII the US has been moving in the general direction the EU has by removing state power and replacing it with federal laws. Plenty of popular thinkers have plainly written that that's what they wanted because they knew best, and maybe some did, but what of their successor? Why im more for state control in the US. I would much prefer local elections to carry more wait than a single presidential one. Especially with our current election... I don't know why its not. Maybe media and incentives of worrying about a single president being far easier and less time consuming to form an educated opinion. Why most people probably vote left or right without any knowing of what left or right even means to the candidates.
Also its a popular opinion that monopolies are bad and terrible things. Why aren't governments thought of in that aspect? All of the reasons why monopolies are bad are the same for centralized power. Be funny if a gov ever warned its people of its growing power and influence over individuals everyday lives. Or that the smaller the gov and the more freedom is a sign of a better system.
But I lean towards freedom before security. A lot of people don't. I'm sure any exit would take time and there would be pains but I think for the bigger picture it could be a better thing for more people. And isn't it a good sign when more countries can cooperate independently without being forced controlled by a single gov. Shouldn't the single gov be a measure of how we haven't broken away from our tribalism conflict instincts? Either way good luck on your end over there and see you in a couple weeks.
- it's less federal version of the USA.lowimpakt
- oh. well if it was me that's the way i'd vote. on basic fundamentals of systems and entropy. from your post below it still seems too many steppeddeathboy
- and fundamentally proned to favor the interests of lobbyists. more rules create more necessity for middlemen. like lawyers and realtorsdeathboy
- you can get lost in the details but i wonder if people will still contest a entropy of larger indirect systems. people see it biz everyday.deathboy
- 3 levels of marketing directors + one VP of something or another. Everything i know is to reject such systems because they hardly ever produce anything gooddeathboy
- jaysuskingsteven
- nb0
Sounds like a lot of people in the UK need a little of the ol' European in-and-out.
- people in the UK are sound but need more honest politicians and medialowimpakt
- ^ joke-killer.nb
- sorry, i'm in london at the minute. no humour or joy allowed here.lowimpakt
- When are you guys going to have full Sharia law there? I understand the Mayors wife wears a burqa once he got elected...robotron3k
- lowimpakt1
the issue with migration is obviously complex.
the 2015 net figure of 333,000 is a record high and actually dropped at the start of 2016.
This "net migration" figures occured while immigration didn't increase significantly. The net was high because there was a drop in emigration.
Obviously other complexities arise with the breakdown. E.g. some are EU (roughly 180,000 of the 330,000 were EU citizens) some are students, returning ex pats, some are EU and some are non EU.
Pricks like Farage say the UK has no control of its borders. This is not entirely true because EU citizens fall under EU rules whereas the UK has a higher level of self control over non-EU citizens.
- around 40% are students.fadein11
- 40%? rly?
"london is the third largest city of hungary" as we used to say :)sted - That's true. I have to get Schengen Visa to travel in Europe but UK has its' separate visa application system. So a Greek visa will let me in Holland but not UKBeeswax
- Although isn't Farages' point that if UK decides to remain that they will have to abide by EU immigration quotas?IRNlun6
- there's no quota. Farage is presenting an image on non-EU migrants and claiming these are governed by the same rules as EU citizens. lies and propagandalowimpakt
- unless you are talking about refugee quota? which is a separate issue than regular migrationlowimpakt
- the international rules that govern treatment of refugees are above the EU. UK pledged to take 20,000 syrians fleeing warlowimpakt
- Ah ok, I thought it was the EU that set refugee quota. Will refugees be granted citizenship in their host countries?IRNlun6
- I'm reading that the EU does have a refugee quota, but Britain is exempt. What a complete cluster fuck this refugee crisis is to the EU...IRNlun6
- The UK has lots of exceptions. on refugee status, the UK is exempt from EU rule on permanently resident refugee. here's uk approach https://www.gov.uk/s…lowimpakt
- it's also not straightforward to get oneself classified as a refugeelowimpakt
- sorry, here's link to UK rules i.e.e not citizenship https://www.gov.uk/s…lowimpakt
- thanks lowimpaktIRNlun6
- detritus1
"In order to bring you a more informed commentary on Britain's EU referendum, this week's issue of The Economist, dated June 25th 2016, may be slightly delayed. We will do our utmost to ensure your print copy is delivered on Saturday, but a small number of subscriber copies may be delivered on Monday morning.
The Economist is convinced that a decision to leave would be bad for Britain, Europe and the world. But we also believe in the importance of objective analysis and reasoned argument. To help you get the facts on the vote, we've curated a collection of articles on Britain and Europe, which you can access below. Inside you'll also find a link to download our full Brexit handbook. And remember, you can always join the conversation via our social channels."
The Economist. On a Monday?!
THIS MADNESS MUST END.
- SlashPeckham0
Here's a Facebook Ad I saw last night - people on both sides of the argument should be upset by what the see here:
https://www.facebook.com/leaveeu…
- detritus0
It's a shame that questioning net migration numbers of 250k+ per year to a country like the UK instantly equates to Oh My God You're Racist in so many people's eyes these days.
The rest of the world looks at Europe and wonders just what the fuck she's doing to herself, shrugs, moves on because hey - it's to their benefit if we implode. Sort of like how it's only really in the interest of the top social tiers to encourage and maintain high migration - because it isn't massively for anyone else here.
- yep. an in / out referendum is probably the least useful means of discussing immigration sensibly.Fax_Benson
- 1.2 million Brits live in other EU countries.
A huge proportion of that 250K (which is in reality closer to 180K) are students. Don't get dragged into thefadein11 - nonsense spin by right wing brexiters. Approx 40% of that figure are students by the way.fadein11
- I'm not dragged into anything - i'm an emigrant going out with an immigrant and have been an on/off donator to MigrationWatch since about 2003.detritus
- Nothing against migration per se, i do earnestly question the quantities though, and 'cui bono'.detritus
- Yep - my figures were from them. 40% of students should not be included in these figures imho.fadein11
- IRNlun60
5th largest economy in the world can't govern on it's own? Looks like both camps are caught up in the personalities who support/reject this but this decision affects Britons futures well beyond current leadership. A decision that will not be so easy to turn back from if things don't work out as promised.
- It's less about the personalities and more about the impossible task of extracting truth from propganda.Morning_star
- There is the history of at one point being the worlds most powerful nation, and a leader in trade, ethics and human rights.IRNlun6
- What do they stand to gain from a centralized bureaucracy that won't be beholden to member countries citizens?IRNlun6
- Empire. Not the most positive era in our history.Morning_star
- True, but does show your country is more than capable of ruling on its own. There is much for your country to take pride in.IRNlun6
- Yes, but I think we realised that conquering countries and then exploiting their resources was ultimately unsustainable. At some point the locals would...Morning_star
- ...get a bit stroppy and take back what was theirs and we didn't have the military might to do that in so many countries.Morning_star
- lol @ leader in human rights - empire days were as bad as it could be.fadein11
- I can understand the sense of self loathing if you're only looking at history through the prism of empire days. A trait many Americans seem to embrace as well.IRNlun6
- chrisRG3
It's hard to believe that people listen to Nigel Farage in the 21st century.
- Absolute moron.fadein11
- they don't. It's late 19th century forever in Farageland.Fax_Benson
- farage and his ilk are the only things stopping me voting out...hans_glib
- that is the point, like it or not he is the voice of the Leave Campaign. Voting Leave is voting UKP.chrisRG
- Smug middle englanders and stupid racists might sway a Brexit. Voting out for rule Britannia and good ol' xenophobia. Sad.monoboy
- If the Remain campaign wins, Farage is going to have a really ugly, really public fit/meltdown. I'd give anything to punch him in the back of the fucking head.Continuity
- ^ yep and lol.fadein11
- couldn't agree more. that's supposed to had happened after last election, he even resigned from UKIP, and suddenly got back.chrisRG
- There was a controversy years ago, at the end of Québec's last in/out referendum, wherein the then-premier of the province blamed the loss of the Out vote on...Continuity
- ... the province's immigrant population. Caused a real stir. This is exactly what Farage will do, too.Continuity
- Forced immigrant quotas by an unelected bureaucracy, under the threat of economic sanctions does not seem to be in any countries best interest.IRNlun6
- pfft, what's quarter of a million people a year for a vast country like the UK with a nominal native popula... oh, hold on.detritus
- It interesting to see where real problems need addressing in europe especially on an economic level are considered xenophobic so not to talk about it.yurimon
- He's such a grinning cunt and just all round jizz guzzler you wanna punch him with a knife again and again.necromation
- yurimon - Farage supporter.fadein11
- deathboy1
typically I don't give a shit about europe, because of george, but hope this has no effect on my vacation there in a couple weeks
- are you going to britain? are you a syrian refugee?lowimpakt
- yes. no. hopefully exchange rates wont get shit on and nothin happens like the scot deal a bit back. would a collapse of the euro shoot the pound up or down?deathboy
- hard to say. pound may weaken benefitting you but not good for British people.lowimpakt
- Farage said “If sterling were to fall a few percentage points after Brexit, so what"" but he's a dicklowimpakt
- hmm. ill have to look up some of this stuff. i regularly go to the bbc.co.uk but all i get is trump nonsense. missed this brexit except for here.deathboy
- PeterPancake1
Can't wait for Brexit rations to kick-off June 24th.
- detritus0
Germany's nuclear policy was and is massively wrong-headed and has only really led to a drop in investment and therefore a stagnation of development between old Gen II reactors and what we really should be running by now (Gen IV+).
This isn't massively critical now as we can load balance electricity against the hydrocarbons that we need for (and this is the important bit) mass transportation.
Germany's efforts to transition to green energy are laudable, but misguided. There is currently no replacement for hydrocarbons and transit, and the only way we can power an entire country's worth of cars and trucks by electricity is ... if we go nuclear.
There is physically and literally no alternative, and there likely won't be for 50 years, or without colonialising (either de facto or economical) North Africa.
Probably why your own country is (like many other countries) still farting around with Fusion.
Where incandescents are concerned, well that's pretty stupid statement in an of itself (India, for example, is rolling out mass-subsidisation for LED bulbs because, hey - less power stations), but furthermore.. http://news.mit.edu/2016/nanopho…
Given your diatribes here, I'm amazed that Britain ever managed to exist as an independent entity in the hundreds of years before EU membership - gosh knows what all those Victorian social values were, eh?
- You seem genuinely offended. No idea how you managed to take mekk's comments personally. Is Britain your downs syndrome brother or something?set
- I tried so hard not to post that. I don't want another setritus argument. Feel free to ignore me.set
- Fucking Setritus. Best thing I've come up with in years.set
- You prefer to view things in fairly polarised terms of personal offence, don't you set? Seems like a thread where you're concerned.detritus
- I'm simply trying to counter his points, with a bit of wryness where I can here and there. Nothing personal at all.detritus
- "You prefer to view things in fairly polarised terms of personal offence"
lol setritus of the dayset - Well, to be fair, I am sniffing at the hints of Germanic self-righteousness, but that's all fair in love and OHMYGOD DON'T MENTION THE WARdetritus
- mekk2
I assume most of us are
financially stable
our food does not poison us (or can choose to eat poisonous)
can travel mostly anywhere in the world without a big deal
can get a credit
drive a car of choice
believe what we think is the one to believe in
or choose not to believe
etc etcWhy you want to risk all that? Because of some few stupid decisions that make your life oh so worse like an economical light bulb? Is that the threat of your life? Then better leave the EU as a person, not as a country.
- People who claim to be 'slaves' of banks etc. mostly do it because they have bought stuff on credit and made themselves slaves.mekk
- I couldn't do all this before 1992? Huh. My folks have lived in Spain since 1987.detritus
- but you're not going back to 1992, you're going full capitalism without regulation.mekk
- You'll see when there are a few rich people left drowning in money and the middle class is completely cut away, replaced by poverty and 12 hour workdays.mekk
- Lit with regular light bulbs, powered by nuclear plants. Great Success.mekk
- kalkal0
So I regestered online on the 3rd. Where's my friggen card?
- fadein111
"A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.
Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:
• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECDHere are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:
• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David IckeSo, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.
And if you are unsure about leaving, don't."
- Thank Fuck the Prime Minister of Japan thinks we should stay in the EU - PHEW!detritus
- Also, on principal I'd argue against whatever it is the IMF thinks is in 'our' best interest, because it sure as hell isn't.detritus
- it'd be a wonder if the world's politicans didn't think in favour, elsewise it'd be a fairly damning indictment against their raison d'etredetritus
- ^ that was Feench, btw - I'm trés Ooroh.detritus
- < your friend sounds like a wankerkilroii
- lol detritus, yeah pick one voice out of thousands you don't like and have your opinion confirmed ^^ http://gifsec.com/wp…mekk
- http://gifsec.com/wp…mekk
- add Putin to the leave the EU part.sted
- aka. "When German literalism and British self-deprecating humour collide"detritus
- Stephen Fucking Hawking again? Fuck that, I'm out.Ianbolton
- fyi - one of the biggest backers of the IMF, and a founding member, is Britain. Their shit is a supra-EU level of Hell No.detritus
- @detritus - if you know how you want to vote do it... this is aimed at those who cannot be arsed to do any research.fadein11
- @kilroii - it's a quote from something I saw - not my friend (hence the quote marks).fadein11
- I'm sorry - I'm not allowed to comment here? My apologies. Must be one of those secretly-decided EU diktats no one knows about until too late...detritus
- Is Feence in the EU?set
- Of course you can comment! But you have clearly made your mind up - this post was aimed at those who haven't.fadein11
- Imagine the thought. People who would be persuaded and vote based on seeing this post.
I'm moving to Feence.set - Oh? how clearly have I made my mind up? I'll actually be voting stay, begrudgingly, but that's not to say there aren't huge reasons for questioning 'Why?'.detritus
- Isn't this pretty much the definition of an ad hominem argument?yuekit
- @detritus - why all the hostility and anger. I know you are voting remain - you made that clear y'day! calm downfadein11
- I am doing the same begrudgingly (as in I am aware of the problems with the EU but I also know the alternative with Boris as PM is horrific).fadein11
- You said this yesterday too - WHERE is my hostility or anger?! Just because I'm answering literally and not adding smileys, doesn't mean I'm somehow enraged.detritus
- ok fair enough - so used to dealing with 2 crazy people on here ha I lumped you in with them ha (joke)... my apologies.fadein11
- —@:D xxxdetritus
- You totally come across as defensive and offended. But my opinion doesn't count because I view everything in terms of personal offence. Lol that.set
- mekk0
The thing is, what do you get when you leave? Everyone shouting for it is people like Dyson, who only see their own benefit because they would not be forced to take their products to proper tests. It's like an UK Trump.
You want freedom but you're just changing your master to an even worse one with this vote. Sure, EU is corrupted, sure Germany might have a word too much everywhere, sure you might disagree with the handling of the refugee crysis.
But are you really willing to give up your political power, a power that grants citizens so much power that they can vote out of the EU, are you willing to hand this power to some companies and their leaders all from one political, highly conservative direction?
- detritus0
I'm guessing you're trying to be amusing or humourous, mekk - if so, perhaps you'll want us to stay in Europe, because that those two witless gurgitations were about as funny as dogshit on my shoe. As far as I'm aware, the one thing us Island Monkeys are liked for over in Germany is our sense of humour, for better or worse.
If you are being serious, perhaps it's that sort of snooty arrogance that people in Britain react to and want no part of? I know that it's riled me and I'm very pro-Europe, if not particularly pro-EU.
Whatever - your country needs the EU a lot more than the UK needs the EU, so enjoy ... I guess? Sounds like we're not wanted beyond being a customer for your agglomerated industries, so I'm sure we'll happily add on tariffs to reduce the benefit to you. I'm sure there are a few other countries in the EU who'd love to do the same...
- I was a bit serious but yes, I want UK to stay. EU invested Billions, why should you even be able to just opt out and take the money with you?mekk
- The 'EU' invested billions? Pray tell, who or what are the EU and where did they get their money from?detritus
- you're not doing a great job of convincing people to stay, mekkFax_Benson
- the 3rd world war begins with this thread. Ironically the sides are similar to 1st and 2nd wars. Germany is against all, Russia might be on their side, US willBeeswax
- decide later on to get involved or not. And I will be eating my popcorn on the shores of Aegean.Beeswax
- @Fax_Benson, convincing people over political stuff on the internet is pretty much impossible, so I don't even try. Everyone has his own truth and nothing else.mekk
- Your posts really were about as funny as contracting HIV.set
- ^ Is it the jews again?mekk
- You Germans just can't let the war and what you did in it go, can you?
(that was a joke, btw)detritus