'Logo' Question
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- nylon
When you do an identity for a client, you give them an estimate, they agree, you complete 'the logo' and supply them with ai and eps and jpg etc and they pay you.
Do you ever consider how 'the logo' that they paid for is going to be used once you have been paid?
- monospaced0
It's best to consider that before you give them an estimate, in my opinion.
- to define scope, etc, so that they aren't asking for it a million different ways for months on end after you "completed" and were paidmonospaced
- set2
By 'how it's going to be used' do you mean morally or aesthetically?
- because if the latter, that's what brand guidelines are for, right?set
- very good point, and that's often part of an identity package, not just a logo one-offmonospaced
- fadein111
Logo vs identity confusion occurring here.
- Gnash1
I can't not think about how the logo will be used as I'm creating it. But unless I'm also being paid to create a brand guideline I keep it to myself.
- Fax_Benson0
do you mean like royalty free vs rights managed?
Can't imagine a logo / identity ever being subject to usage restrictions in the same way as an image or illustration.
- nylon0
Im using the word 'logo' on purpose...
A mark is created and sold to the client. No guidelines - nothing.
For example - way back when - Burt's Bees...
So Burt pays you $1000 for doing his 'logo' and he sells his products at markets etc.
Had you had known Burt was going to blow up - would you have charged him more?
Would you have charged him $1000 for the logo but then have say 'usage rights' in the contract?
Essentially - Im interested in your thoughts on 'usage' after the 'logo' has been delivered.
Thanks
- I'm of the opinion that the designer shouldn't in any way feel entitled to more money in the future simply because the brand became hugeset
- Charge what you're comfortable charging, move on and be proud that your work is so widely recognised.set
- In other words, charge sensibly and don't be an entitled cunt.set
- Usage rights for a logo?bainbridge
- good luck selling that to the clientFax_Benson
- I include usage rights in contracts, even for logos. Usually defined as "in perpetuity, unlimited" provided they don't resell since I claim authorship.hellobotto
- "Had you had known Burt was going to blow up - would you have charged him more?" Should clients ask for refunds if the brand built from a logo tanks? No and no.hellobotto
- bainbridge0
Logo for small company, I charge flat fee, deliver, get paid.
Logo for large company, I charge larger flat fee, take more time doing research, bigger presentation (including mocks of how it could be used and logo vs. that of competitors), deliver, get paid.
If company does well, hopefully you get call for more work, expand branding or whatever, get more money.
It's a logo. Client should be free to use it anytime without restrictions or royalties. You expect that when you bill.
- nylon0
This is all good - thank you...
One last scenario for you all:
- Pro Footballer wants a 'website'
- You do a proposal for a 'website'
- Pro Footballer signs off budget for 'website'
- Pro Footballer has no identity to go on said 'website'
- Proposal goes to Pro Footballer for an 'identity'
- Pro Footballer declines for the moment. He will need 'a logo' at some point though... and when he does - guess who will be doing it!
- You create a logotype for Pro Footballer as a filler so website can be launched
- 'Website' launches
- Pro Footballer pays for 'website' and is VERY pleased.
- Two years down the line - seems like Pro Footballer has not only having ball trouble BUT he has produced lots of merchandise with the filler 'logotype'.Filler 'logotype' was never paid for.
'Logotype was taken without permission'
Pro Footballer has been making money from your work without permission.How would you deal with Pro Footballer?
- sheeeeeit, you basically gave him a logo and didn't charge for it, and didn't bring it up as it was used over and over for yearsmonospaced
- bill him for the logo but he is not obligated to pay.docpoz
- Didnt know he was using it till he called me and said 'I want to trademark my logo - can you send the file over please'!?!?!nylon
- He never paid for the logo. Bill him for it and send files over once he's paid.set
- Then that means the identity project is complete and reference the proposal. Say, "that's great, I was hoping to hear from you on that."monospaced
- How is he selling merchandise with the low res logo from the website?set
- 'I thought it was part of the website'
'You just chose a font and used my name"nylon - Took the font and typed out his name - kerned it BADnylon
- Did it take you more than 5 minutes? Are you entitled to full fee for choosing font quickly?freedom
- Freedom - seriously question... Does it matter how long it took? It is still our work and they used it without permission...nylon
- ^ Yes, it can matter. If you pursue legal action, you may have to quantify your level of effort to articulate the impact.hellobotto
- That's where your hourly rate comes into play. If you can only demonstrate the faux logotype was done in 5 min, take your hourly rate and multiply it by .083.hellobotto
- Mmm... Well it is a logotype that I wrote out and kerned. First name is larger than the last name and was justified to make a block/stampnylon
- ...unless you can show where logotype was a separate line in the website proposal. Otherwise, he *may* be able to claim the logotype was part of the total art.hellobotto
- Again - being serious here... There was no mention of any 'logo' because the proposal was for a website. My designs say in top left hand corner 'Pro Footballernylon
- logo to go here' if that makes sense?nylon
- As already noted...send the invoice, if he's honest he'll pay, or he'll have his nephew duplicate it, not much you can do nowformed
- but how did he get a high enough quality one to "produce merchandise"?formed
- Explain politely how you created it as a placeholder only, but you're thrilled he likes it so much. Just throw out how much an 'identity' would normally cost...kona
- ... and say it would be great if he could throw something your way for the time. Or, say you'd like to tweak it a bit for a little extra (point out improvementskona
- ) and say you'll create it better for all types of usage for a small fee. Like Dalton from Road House always says... "be nice"kona
- Offer to design a real logo for real money.freedom
- Tricky one. Out of interest, did you purchase a license for the font you used?monoboy
- So, what's his name? Please don't tell say it's Tom Brady...OSFA
- do you normally charge for time when you create a logo? This is a tricky situation.OP31
- deathboy0
If he wasn't making money would you give him money back? Sounds like one to just say hey that's great you are using my placeholder logo. Try to recoup perceived value in future projects. Seems kind of silly to get bent out of shape on the guy using a quick little placeholder logo you didn't care about. Maybe make a case study blog post about how even a fiverr style logo can work successfully and run some banner ads. Or you can be all girly and try to explain how you want to be paid for your placeholder logo since he has successfully marketed it on his own merit, and see how he responds.
Personally I'd forget about the past, learn and move on and have it as a funny story.
- bklyndroobeki0
Thought this was posted 10 years ago.
YES, you should give them a HOW TO USE manual. They can do whatever they want w/ it so long as you put the guides in place.
- nylon0
Yes 10 years ago people had $20,000 to blow on an identity and a set of guidelines.
Not anymore.
They don't even want to pay for an identity never mind a set of guidelines...
- hopefully it's not the pro baller
then.bklyndroobeki - they? as in everyone in the world?set
- they still pay for it now, not sure what planet you're living ondoesnotexist
- hopefully it's not the pro baller
- Gnash1
Re the pro-footballer story -- Nylon didn't create a free "logo' for the client, he created a website that included a needed mark - or else the site would be unfinished. there is a sublte difference. once the guy says 'hey, not bad. I'll pop that shit on a tshirt and start banking" he's crossed a line.
I've created "logo"s for bands as a part of designing their record artwork. My paperwork is very clear that they can use that logo to 'promote' their album all they want. Once it goes on a tshirt or poster that's 'for-sale,' I get paid.
- but even if that wasn't on the paperwork. unless you explicitly transfer all rights, those rights remain with the creator. (by creator, I mean you, not God)Gnash
- Like a photo license.freedom
- ^ sort of. I've hired photographers to shoot publicity shots. I can use those shots as needed for promotion...Gnash
- ...but if I wanted to use them for packaging I would need to pay for thatGnash
- doesnotexist1
you gave it to him and you weren't clear as to usage.
your fault
- dibec0
brass tacks. no disclosure, client probably uneducated about the usage rights.
I would be honest, if you feel you are owed, talk to him and let him know. What actions happen after are really up in the air. I know next time you will disclose this in the contract.
Live, Learn, Repeat.
- Spoke to them about it and they blew up!
"We just presumed it was part of the website"nylon
- Spoke to them about it and they blew up!
- nylon0
Update
So I sent an email explaining what they had paid for and what they had not paid for.
I sent an invoice in that same email saying once paid - I would give them full exclusivity to the mark.
The reply
'Thanks for this. We will seek some legal advice and get back to you ASAP.
In the meantime, could you make the changes to our website that I asked you to do a few weeks ago'
Answers on a postcard please, QBN'ers
- dibec0
Eject! Eject! Eject!
- display0
You're not getting paid for this mate
My guess is they are trying to get as much out of you as possibleI would suggest telling them that you have no choice but to seize all activity on their account until the invoice has been fully paid. This will reset the trust in your relationship as now it seems like they are going to take the piss.
- display0
But in answer to your original question.
Yes i always consider how a logo will be used otherwise how do you know if it works well in different applications?Would you design a logo that didn't work in small sizes?
No you'll need to test in
