Lack of quality
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- moldero0
that's like $40k US, is the economy up there still really that fucked up? how long do i have to hibernate in Mexico?
- mydo0
ok by junior/grad we mean someone straight out of uni who maybe talented at design but is really slow and has little or no real world experience. with coaching and time a junior can produce the same work as a senior, but the difference is time. eg..
Can you whip up 10 logos for a client presentation at 2pm.
Senior gives you 20 useable logos at 1pm
Junior has 2 great logos at 2.30For this i wouldn't pay more than £20k, how is that a return on investment. unless you're training someone up. if that's the case then salary jumps up with ability. If you're under 25 in the UK, i can't see you earning over £30k as a graphic design. surely? maybe i'm wrong. i left the UK 7 years ago.
on the flip side. come out to shanghai. a fully qualified, bi-lingual graduate is £2,250 per year.
- jamble0
It's no wonder the industry is fucked if some of you think £25k isn't top dollar for a new graduate.
Most recent graduates don't know their arse from their elbow and while some produce interesting work, they don't have a clue when it comes to working for a paying client.
- vaxorcist0
Personality
Talent
Availabilitypick any two
- vaxorcist0
In my recent experience at two agencies, good juniors were able to make amazing work, but seniors would make work that more often got approved by clients, even if it was less amazing.....
Biggest issue we had was one junior who thought he was master of the universe... he was about half as good as he thought he was, which was actually really good, but he alienated clients...
- crayz0
Turning into an interesting debate.
What do you think about grads working for free "the internship?"
I've had to turn down 3 internships at top, top, top agencies in London due to not being able to live on 100 pound a week. I feel like I've missed out and seriously let some chances slip But avoided adding more debt on to my debt.
At the same time I've done over 6 months of expenses only internships in Manchester and Liverpool. I don't feel like its got me anywhere other than a name on my CV. No portfolio work to show for it, well i guess real life experiences with clients is a plus.I'm still at a loss as to what i think about internships. Some studios just do it for cheap labor and fresh ideas surely? I freelanced at a place who always had at lest 3 interns in at a time. They would not be able to handle the work load without them being their.
- Depends on size - still a tough economy for small studios...most have paid their dues. Always frustrating but kind of a rite of passagebabaganush
- Passagebabaganush
- RumperChunk0
I think free internships are wrong plain and simple. Agencies bitch on about having to do free pitches... So why do they insist on not paying bright, talented and committed individuals? Massive hypocrisy. I want to pay people what they're worth, as I believe it brings out the best in them, and helps form a relationship based on understanding and trust. You CANNOT run a studio any other way as far as I'm concerned.
- Love your attitude towards free internships.
im about to hit upon the some soon :/Hombre_Lobo_2
- Love your attitude towards free internships.
- babaganush0
We've even had to turn down bright students offering to work for free out of ethics. No way we can afford ribose them as still not a fluid economy but your statement above I agree with. However in some respects these students would have gotten closer to award winning work for good clients than at a large agency. Unless you are talking an Omnicom agency or something it is down to exchange of knowledge. Small studios will need to nurture and take their eyes of the ball ( with already limited resources ) and will always be giving more than they get. If this is done exploitatively it is bang out of order, more often than not it is from necessity. Therefore RumperChunk I very much agree with your sentiments but in creative industries and the disparity between scale etc. It's not always possible and the people that lose out will be inexperienced graduates looking for a break in a tough climate
- josimar0
What are you really trying to say here Rumperchunk by starting this thread? I have a fair idea.
- crayz0
I'll be honist with you Ruberchunk. Your folio / work does not look like the kind of work that would attack top grads.
25k wouldn't buy you someone who was out to develop. Money isn't the main reason for first jobs then if it is, your not going to do very well. My main priority is finding somewhere with a lot of senior people around who appreciate and understand my skills, who want to see me develop. i can make money on my own till then. 25k would not temp me into working somewhere at the start of my career that i didn't think I'd learn a lot from.
- LukeO0
I'll be honest with you crayz
Your insulting and talking crap. Your very misguided if you really believe half of what you just said. But then again I suppose you are a recent grad so you don't have a bloody clue.
25k will attract alot of top level grads because there are hardly any jobs out there right now. People work for free to develop skills so why wouldn't 25k work? Senior designers aren't surrogate mothers there to further you. They want a designer who doesn't moan, keeps the ego in check, who works fast to make their life easier.
- pinkfloyd0
Why is there a internet nerd fight everyday?
- crayz0
LukeO.
the 25k suggest he's having problems attracting anyone in, I'm just saying that from the point of view of a graduate. He does not do the type of work that appeals to graduates. I'm not trying to be offensive.
- Dodecahedron0
i thought this thread was going to be something about weed.
- I thought it was going to be about blowjobs given by english womenHench
- hah...it fits.akrokdesign
- akrokdesign0
not bad, hope you find a good one. :-)
- LukeO0
Crayz
Your aiming big, it will get you far! I have recently heard of grads getting starting salaries of mid-twenties with known & up-and-coming agencies - it does happen!
You would learn just as much at an agency like the one mentioned above as you would with an agency of your dreams as they have the same working methods and are producing the same kind of work after all — though I will admit the very best have that special 1% that some agencies don't have, but, well I think you should nail down the other 99% first.
Good luck with the search crayz.
And good luck RumperChunk getting your junior. Refreshing and honest views!
- jamble0
@crayz - Some interesting perspective from the grad side for sure. Took a look at your folio and it's got some impressive client/project names (Nike etc). Is that all commissioned work or a mix of made up and real work?
I'm really amazed graduates expect to be on a minimum of £25k for doing fuck all to date though, I'm not saying it's top dollar and that there aren't a few out there with real potential or actual freelance experience on the side but I do think it's pretty worrying that someone can walk out of uni and actually demand what's still not a terrible wage despite having little to no experience of delivering anything other than fanciful uni project work.
- thecreativefire0
I started at £11k as a junior in 1998. I'm pretty sure that any graduate would bite your hand off for £25k. I think that's pretty phemonenal for a jr. In my experience £17k is the norm.
- RumperChunk0
I'm not saying we do the greatest ever work, but we do work across a broad section of the industry and I think our animation work is pretty bloody good. But you're right Crayz - graduates always want to work with the coolest studios doing the coolest work (until reality kicks in I think) so we may struggle to fill in the void with top talent.. but what depresses me is the overall quality of the work I'm being sent by Junior level designers.. I don't even want top talent.. I want someone that communicates well through their work and through themselves - solid skills and an appetite to improve and grow. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places.. who knows?
- Does sound like an awesome opportunity. Hope you find a smart graduate, sounds like they'll get great guidancebabaganush
- Agreed. your animation work is nice.crayz
- +1akrok