gay anti gay?
- Started
- Last post
- 159 Responses
- bitPic0
there are gay animals so how do you explain that...
i dont care if a person is gay hot girl on hot girl has given me some of the best moments in my life.- whoah whoah whoah, hold up. It's their CHOICE! Hahaha.monospaced
- Spookytim0
I've always said you don't have to be a gay to satisfy your man in bed.
- GeorgesII0
just updating,
another famous gay anti gay and his late lover
Is it so difficult to come out of the closet when you're a nazi?
- monkeyshine0
Khurram, the "Bush is gay" talk isn't necessarily homophobic. And what does it matter is relevant in the following context. When you look at all of these uber gay bashing conservatives who have been found out (be it in airport bathroom stalls or congress) to be closeted homosexuals then you begin to see what's really driving homophobia. Bill Maher often half jokes about how these conservative politicians and public christian figures are gay. It's the "thou protesteth too much" syndrome.
- yes true but by using the word "gay" as derogatory slang ultimately demeans gay peopleautomaticiam
- CALLES0
Behave Kids! dont make me come out there!
- he wants to spank us in the ghey thread!DrBombay
- the closet?iCanHasQBN
- CALLES0
people enjoy picking at douchbags, metals, hipsters, emo's, latin, black, white, fatties, different religions... point is why can't some one do a gay jok every now and then.... geezus christ
- Carl_Weathers0
'Man dies in fairy eating contest'
- gramme0
ascescence & six:
Since I am not gay, I would imagine you'll discount what I'm about to say from a lack of experience. I don't have a degree in psychology, although it has been an interest of mine for years. Take or leave my humble opinion for whatever it's worth.
I maintain that being gay IS a choice. Saying that gay patterns have been witnessed in the animal kingdom – and thus support the genetics of homosexual tendencies in humans – is an incredibly weak argument, because it assumes humans are animals, and that there is sufficient likeness between humans and animals to draw such parallels. I don't see reason from science or psychology to support these supposed likenesses. Humans can reason on complex levels, unlike animals. They have souls, unlike animals.
I think it is possible to have a predilection for homosexuality, just like some people can't seem to look at porn in moderation, some are obsessively clean, some (maybe even most of us in developed countries) are addicted to monetary gain, etc. All of these lifestyle characteristics are choices. They may be deeply ingrained habits and paradigms influenced by our upbringing. Some patterns and habits are so deeply ingrained that only rehabilitation (such as drug addiction or alcoholism, for example) can correct them. One often feels that the choice was never theirs with such deep habits.
Now of course, I don't think being gay really compares well with alcoholism, I was just using that as an example. It is however a person's reaction to events in their lives, almost always events that happen at a very early age, sometimes even earlier than one can remember. It's not necessarily sexual or emotional abuse, although I have known/known of very many gay men and women who were sexually and/or emotionally abused from a young age. Sometimes it happened only once, sometimes it happened for years on end. It is very telling that violence among gay adult men is rampant; sometimes even taken for granted. Such physical abuse often goes unreported for a variety of reasons.
Another scenario I have seen quite a bit, in the lives of gay men at any rate, is the lack of a father figure. Perhaps the dad left early on and the boy never had a man to model himself after. More often, the father is present for at least part of the boy's childhood, but is emotionally absent or abusive. Maybe he even spends a lot of time with his son, but can't express masculine affection.
I know these scenarios may seem like oversimplifications. I know this does not explain the roots of every gay person's lifestyle. Sometimes, guys have great relationships with their fathers, but have awful, embarrassing, traumatic experiences with women (rejection from an early age, etc.) There are so many reasons and factors. But my bottom line is that there is always a REASON why people are gay, and I don't think the reason is ever genetics.
On a side note six, I have a hard time believing that your boyfriend's kids were not traumatized by their father's lifestyle change and the divorce. I have never met a child, even older teen kids, who were not heartbroken by their parents' divorce, regardless of what caused it. In fact, I personally know a family that was broken years ago by a father who left his wife for a man. As I recall, the guy's wife even caught him in the act. It took her many years to overcome the pain. To this day the father's kids, some of whom are older than me, have difficulty talking about it. And regardless of what one believes about such a thing as the gay gene...I don't think the spouse who is left behind could ever fully shake the notion that they "drove their wife or husband to the other side." The attendant shame and heartache is enormous and unavoidable. To paint your boyfriend's scenario as a positive thing seems very twisted and sad to me.
It is unfortunate to hear your dad's outlook on gay people. I would never ever tell my son to avoid gay people, though I would talk to him about the relationships God originally intended for men and women, and why.
I've said about all I can on this subject. I fully expect to get flamed for this, pun somewhat intended. So be it.
- It is a choice, in so far as it's also a choice - to a certain extent - to consume food and drink liquid.lukus_W
- I of course disagree, but ultimately it doesn't matter whether it's genetic or not.gramme
- It's a departure from God's original plan, which wasn't to hem us in with restrictions,gramme
- but rather to lead us to the more profound and lasting joys life offers.gramme
- NOT A CHOICE!duckofrubber
- Corvo0
Grow up.
- nadanada0
i am gay, and believe me, it's not a choice.
had it been a choice, i would have changed my mind in middle school when the verbal abuse at school was so bad i don't remember much else of those three years.if you still believe its a choice, please explain that to my 4-year-old self who had a rabid crush on jonathan taylor thomas.
- harlequino0
If someone has been taught through whatever ultra conservative upbringing and guidance, that homosexuality is wrong, and that they themselves have to measure up to this rigid concept of morality and righteousness, and that person then is gay themselves - then it makes sense that they will learn to not only hate themselves so deeply but to also hate homosexuals with even greater fervor and gusto*.
(*Ed. note: having 'gusto' in and of itself is a reference to flamboyance and/or the fashionable and decorative sensibilities. See what I did there?)
- hahaha you said "Ed. note:" and your name is Ed. hilarious!7point34
- ... that was the joke right?
don't worry, i'm just JOSHing you7point34 - So your name's Bruce, right?harlequino
- *snarky cackleharlequino
- Bruce Campbell. shop smart. shop s-mart7point34
- Groovy...harlequino
- moth0
Sorry monkeyshine, while that may sometimes be the case, I think your accusation of homophobics being closeted homosexuals is just something concocted to make you feel better and "understand" homophobia.
It's like telling your kids that it's the "taking part that counts" when they loose a game. That's bullshit too.
You need to accept that sometimes, there is no reasonable explanation for peoples behaviour.
- well, it's not an accusation and I didn't mean it as a blanket explanation. But people who are really obsessed withmonkeyshine
- "stopping the gays" are suspect in my eyes.monkeyshine
- and no explainable reason for homophobia? It doesn't exist in a vacuum, ya know.monkeyshine
- Doesn't exist in black and white either.moth
- lukus_W0
@gramme;
Well, I can see your points - but, as I'm sure we've all learnt throughout our lives - discussion and argument re. religion is often fruitless.
I find it difficult because whenever I'm in this dynamic - while I'd like to think of myself as open to changing my mind - most of the religious people I've entered in discussion with, can't ever submit to the same possibility. Perhaps faith, by its very nature, is irrefutable.
I won't try to convince you otherwise, but I would ask you to consider a 'what if ...'
Imagine that a proclivity for homosexuality is such a profoundly innate attribute, that (whether through nature or nurture, or a mixture of both) a person who is homosexual has no other choice. They are as sure of their desire for a partner of the same sex, as a heterosexual man would be towards his wife.
Apart from being homosexual, this is a good person. They suffer from bouts of jealousy, and sometimes take out their frustration in inappropriate ways, just like most people. They're not perfect (they're sinful) just like anyone else.
The only difference is, they are attracted to people of the same sex.
So, what should this person do?
Should they deny themselves a relationship with someone of their own sex? Should they lie to themselves, to try to act 'heterosexual'? Should they pray and ask God to make them straight?
All of these possibilities and more are faced by homosexual people who aren't able to accept themselves for what they are.
The fact is, that (while you may not be willing to believe it), someone who is homosexual _IS_ homosexual. In no way is it a life-style choice. If you accept this point, it's very difficult to maintain the view you describe whilst remaining compassionate.
Homophobia, in my mind - doesn't necessarily manifest itself as a fear, just as racism doesn't necessarily show itself as a fear of black people.
Homophobia (at its root) is the idea that people who are homosexual are less equal, and should therefore be treated differently (disadvantaged) to people who are heterosexual.
I think there are a lot of good things about Christianity - but I also think that there are many principles that are now very anachronistic.
There are basic truths that I believe all should try to live by, loving another should never be seen as sinful.
- It's a good question, and one I intend to answer. Must attend to deadlines for now.gramme
- six0
there's that word G again
- ukit0
Gramme, you seem like a nice enough guy, but why you feel the need to write 9 paragraphs explaining to someone why their lifestyle is "not natural" is beyond me. All of your conjecture about childhood influences and upbringing, could be applied just as well to your own world view as a Christian. I'm no mood to start an argument about this but I do feel that in 20 years you and most of the world will probably look at the issue differently.
- Insecurity brought upon by desire to strictly adhere to religious dogma.lukus_W
- Wrong and wrong, lukus. But keeping spinning stories like that if it lets you put a label on me.gramme
- The rhetoric behind my comment is very similar to the way you intellectualise homophobia in your comment above.lukus_W
- above.lukus_W
- Erm, no. I was being respectful, and offering a reasoned response.gramme
- previous0
in my opinion people maintain that being gay is a choice because it's the only way to justify their brand of christian dogma
- gramme0
The wholesale lack of understanding here in regards to human nature, right and wrong is amazing to me.
I have absolutely no problem hanging out with, working with or getting to know gay people. There are no gay people in my current office, but if there were I wouldn't treat them any differently. Back when I waited tables in college, some of my co-workers were gay; we used to hang out and drink beers together, no worries.
My question: do you all consider it homophobia if I am perfectly comfortable around gay people, but still consider the lifestyle wrong? I would say the same thing to my friends who choose not to wait until marriage to have sex. Being gay is no worse, it's just another deviation from what sex was originally meant to be – not according to me, but you know Who.
Thing is, if I had any close gay friends, it would be a while before they heard my take on homosexuality. I'd rather let them see that as a Christian, my number one priority is love, and that means building solid relationships. Also, I have my own thorns in the flesh, and plenty of shady things in my past. I guess the rub is that some people see nothing wrong with being gay, and some people do. Unfortunately, the people who think the lifestyle is a wrong choice – but still choose to treat gay men and women like anyone else – get lumped in with the ultra-conservative, bigoted, chaw-spitting types who are the actual homophobes. You know – the ones who make awful gay jokes, harrass them, even do physical harm to gays. I hope people can learn to see more clearly through the haze of vitriol that permeates gay-rights groups etc. – see that it is possible to care for someone without judgment, even whilst disagreeing with some of their lifestyle choices.
- Politely disagreeing is fine. Believing you have a right to dictate how others live (who they marry, if they raise kids, etc) is quite anotherlocustsloth
- You obviously do the formerlocustsloth
- locustsloth0
While i honestly admire your relatively even-handed approach to this, and many other issues where you differ in your opinion from non-believers, this made me chuckle a bit:
"I've not seen scientific proof which points to genetic disposition."A man of faith disbelieving something, based heavily on the fact that there is no SCIENTIFIC proof of it.
- Clarification: Why is it any different for someone to "know" they are gay than it is for you to "know" there is a god?locustsloth
- \wow, great point!Josev
- I see no reason why logic, science, and faith can be varyingly used to arrive at conclusions.gramme
- *can't be usedgramme
- —i.e., it depends on the subject at hand... such as divine existence or genetically-driven concernsgramme
- when it's convenient to switch from logic to fictionscarabin
- Absolutely not. The method suits the subject. The subject shouldn't be an excuse for a method.gramme
- six0
ukit, well said. i'm too busy picking myself off the floor to reply atm. i guess i have left myself wide open to this by being so honest and open on a public forum.
- gramme0
locustsloth, you're talking about the difference between [what God claims to be] divine revelation in Scripture, and a personal point of view. I don't think it's possible for me to know myself as well as the one who made me.
More later... must run.