war
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- mitsu0
one last thing i would like to note:
this topic did go ok, but i would prefer to only stay in discussions that refrain from name calling. that includes things like 'brainwashed'. i would really like to see your side, regardless of what the topic is... i love debate, but i it's really hard to stay with it, when people are just throwing out names like that. I prefer being shown a news source or something to refute my arguments...
you know, something to get me to say "oh, i've never looked at it that way... hmmm maybe you are right." it's just hard doing that when someones rebuttle is a one word insult. kapeesh?
respect to all. even those who's perspectives i'm still trying to see.
- exador0
tons of respect right back at ya mitsu.
i enjoy a good debate as well, and have always tried to keep above the name calling...
once you start down that road you burn every bridge here that you may have made giving advice, or joking around..one thing i've always loved about NT was that we could get to know and associate with other designers all over the world..,
it's only natural that we'll have different opinions..
how we express those opinions dictates how others will treat us..
and i like to think that i get treated pretty well here..and treat others the same...oh..and mitsu..maybe this could be the bit that changes your opinion a bit..
IRAQ
CBS has reported that barely five hours after the attacks on Washington and New York, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is quoted shorthand by aides saying, in reference to Saddam Hussein, “Judge whether good enough to hit S.H. at same time. Not only UBL [Osama bin Laden]. Go massive. Sweep it all up. Things related and not.” (“Plan for Iraq Attack Began on 9/11”, CBS Washington, 4 September 2002) If it weren’t for September 11, would we be marching to war in Iraq today?
They may have found another excuse; they have wanted to do this for some time. 9/11 gave them the excuse to do many things: Afghanistan, Iraq, the crackdown on civil liberties at home, the crackdown on the Freedom of Information Act – all kinds of things, at home and abroad. They would have found some other pretext if it wasn’t for 9/11 – and that isn’t even a pretext in the case of Iraq. With Afghanistan, on the surface at least, it could be used as a pretext because there was some connection there, supposedly, but with Iraq there is no connection whatsoever with 9/11.
- slinky0
the newspaper that is run by Saddam's son Uday Hussein
http://www.iraq2000.com/babil/ba…article by Uday
http://www.iraq2000.com/babil/ba…
- Bluejam0
"If it weren’t for September 11, would we be marching to war in Iraq today?"
Yes. I think this war has been coming for along time. Way before 9/11 infact. Back in 1993 Samuel P. Huntington wrote an essay 'The Clash of Civilizations'
http://www.lander.edu/atannenbau…
It's a good read.
"It is my hypothesis that the fundamental source of conflict in this new world will not be primarily ideological or primarily economic. The great divisions among humankind and the dominating source of conflict will be cultural."
- chinaman0
a lot of innocent peoples time has come, i hope it was all worth it. rest in peace.
- exador0
Samuel P. Huntington'd theories aren't all that satisfying, or honest when you look at the big picture tho..
America, as a nation has been looking to re-imagine it's foreign policy, ever since the end of the coldwar.
it's final decision, much of it 'popularly' based on essays much like Samuel P. Huntington's, is easily described as a 'pax americana'....
thus we have (or you have) the PNAC
The Project for a New American Century, or PNAC, is a group founded in 1997 that has been agitating since its inception for a war with Iraq.
Most recently, PNAC created a new group called The Committee for the Liberation of Iraq. Staffed entirely by PNAC members, The Committee has set out to "educate" Americans via cable news connections about the need for war in Iraq. This group met recently with National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice regarding the ways and means of this education.Who is PNAC? Its members include:
* Vice President Dick Cheney, one of the PNAC founders, who served as Secretary of Defense for Bush Sr.;
* I. Lewis Libby, Cheney's top national security assistant;
* Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, also a founding member, along with four of his chief aides including;
* Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, arguably the ideological father of the group;
* Eliot Abrams, prominent member of Bush's National Security Council, who was pardoned by Bush Sr. in the Iran/Contra scandal;
* John Bolton, who serves as Undersecretary for Arms Control and International Security in the Bush administration;
* Richard Perle, former Reagan administration official and present chairman of the powerful Defense Policy Board;
* Randy Scheunemann, President of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, who was Trent Lott's national security aide and who served as an advisor to Rumsfeld on Iraq in 2001;
* Bruce Jackson, Chairman of PNAC, a position he took after serving for years as vice president of weapons manufacturer Lockheed-Martin, and who also headed the Republican Party Platform subcommittee for National Security and Foreign Policy during the 2000 campaign. His section of the 2000 GOP Platform explicitly called for the removal of Saddam Hussein;
* William Kristol, noted conservative writer for the Weekly Standard, a magazine owned along with the Fox News Network by conservative media mogul Ruppert Murdoch.
hmmmmmmmmm....
:)starting to see a scary picture?
and this aint no conspiracy theory...
check out their website...
http://www.newamericancentury.or…
- unknown0
scary indeed
if that isn't a cabal i don't know what is
- CL0
make it funky
- Bluejam0
From http://www.newamericancentury.or…
"The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire."
But what happens if the shaping of circumstances create crises and increase threats to a point of becoming dire?
- Jamesh0
good read exador. way to think for yourself. I wouldn't expect to see that one on FauxNews.
Here's something along the same lines...the hawks in washington have been planning this for a long time http://motherjones.com/news/feat…
As for the flaming in this thread....It is easy to get worked up when thousands of people are going to die needlessly.
When you see those video feeds from the bombs point of view (next week)...and as you see yourself descending down onto that building in the crosshairs...know this...there are people in there...some of them good people....who may just have told someone "I love You." just before that bombs destroys the building and everyone inside it.
The US govornment has proclaimed that they will drop more bombs in the 1st 2 days this time than they did the ENTIRE GULF WAR. That's alot of death. You can't tell me there won't be needless casualties of the innocent.
War is Hell . It's not a game.
And as for earlier in the thread, I don't mean to call names...and I try to stay away from calling names like a**hole and dumb*ss, etc because that serves no purpose but to inflame.
but coward and fool are not simply name calling, they are merely accurate descriptions of blind patriot armchair generals who think muslims want to attack us because we have freedom and who get their information from CNN and vote for whoever their daddy's voted for. Especially those that know NOTHING about the real Bush.
The truth hurts.
- izaway0
At this point I can't hold back I have to let it go.
First of all, I am sorry, the rest of the world is just fucking transparent these days. It is definitely chic and hip and cool to diss america and I am sick of it. I am sick of all these cliches about ignorant right wing gun toting americans supporting the war. I am a total liberal I never voted republican but I do support the disarmement of Sadam Hussein!
People who say that 9/11 has nothing to do with Iraq are just fucking kidding themselves. To say that Iraq will never hook up with
Al Quada are fucking freaky. Al Quada has faction in Iraq. Hello! The man who attempted the first world trade center bombing was Iraqi! Sadam has gased his own fucking people and you think that if we sit back and let 9/11 happen and slap him on the wrist send him more paper and beg him to stop he's gonna do it! People say more arabs are going to hate and attack more. THEY ARE GOING TO ATTACK US ANYWAY! Regardless. Especially if they think that Al Quaeda is gonna get away with 9/11. You think they are gonna stop! They tried in 1993 failed, geared up and came back in 2001 because we didn't do anything the last fucking time. The only thing that is going to stop them is a fucking proactive effort. You say fuck america. I say fuck all these crazy ass isalmic freaks trying shove
stoning people to death in soccor stadiums and enslaving women down my fucking throat as a mere cultural difference I have to respect.FREE PALESTINE. and deal with goddamn Israel the major source of this shit!
Lastly don't forget Kosovo. If it weren't for the US and NOT the United Nations we still be dealing with ethnic cleansing in that region. Should we have listened to the Security Council that time?
- unknown0
I think izaway needs to check a little more history, but waaaaaaaaaaay back before 9/11, Im not taking sides here, but what happened then its a consecuence of what america did first, and us going to war, while the whole world is thinking we shouldn't will only make things worst.
blood of innocent people is never the answer, and that goes for both side, If bush was the only one going to fight this war, isntead of sending an army of brain washed bodies, I wouldn give a fuck, lots of innocent people that has nothing to do with this stupid problem about petrol and power, are going to die, just imagine if your kid, or mom was in irak right now.. how would you feel.PEACE!
- Jamesh0
well put izaway. and yes, free palestine.
I am more afraid of Bush than I am Saddam. and I'm pissed he's screwing our great country up.
get rid of saddam but for gods sake get rid of bush too.
just a sidenote: america was created on the basis of ethnic cleansing. so it really depends on what side of the fence you're on just ask the indians...oh wait you can't.....they're dead. but now we refer to that massacre as "HOW THE WEST WAS WON"
how glorious.
- Bluejam0
"The man who attempted the first world trade center bombing was Iraqi!"
If you follow that statement to a logical conclusion you find that the US should also 'regime change' Saudi Arabia since most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.
- Buckyball20
my original statement from the beginning of this thread:
I pray for the safety of our soldiers and the iraqi people. I hope this conflict is short lived and as bloodless as possible.
this thread has become a conflict in and of itself.
bB
- Jamesh0
as far as saddam being a monster that needs to be dealt with...
http://www.globalpolicy.org/secu…
The USA and BRITAIN created this problem when we created Iraq's borders to divide the tribes that sat on all that oil.
So now you have a country (Iraq) who is made up of 3 major tribes WHO WILL NEVER GET ALONG sitting on 11% of the earths oil supply.
Enter Saddam: We made this man. We gave him weapons. Britain built his MUSTARD GAS factories. We stood by and watched as he gassed Iranians and Kurds because at the time IT BENEFITED US. Rumsfeld and co gave him all the weapons he wanted as long as he fed our thirst for OIL.
Now has become a problem for us and is not longer a 'good little puppet' so we must take him out.
Who is it that has for years enforced their will upon smaller nations of the world and participated in colonizing the planet in self interest. The UK and USA.
All I'm saying is that since we created this problem to beging with we should have the common decency to the people of that area and to our own people to solve this using diplomacy and peace. For once be a good example and not a source to fuel hatred.
We have f*cked enough things up.. it's time to start repairing the damage. not creating more of the same. Before you can solve a problem you must first know what causes the problem to begin with.
- lilbabyleg0
jamesh... right on.
- chilaquil0
Jamesh, I hate it when you're right...
- izaway0
You, know every time people discuss this conflict anti war protesters always go off down a tangent of what the US has done wrong in the world. Yeah we all know what US did wrong in this world. Even with regards to Iraq itself. But its all beside the point. We have to deal with the thousands of litres of poison NOW , PRESENT TENSE. I agree that we should learn and not make the same mistakes in the future. But I don't care where he bought the source materials. His aircraft parts from France up until a few weeks ago for example. He has mixed the shit together and put into warheads I want him stopped NOW.
And while most of the WTC terrorists were Saudi, Regime change would indeed be necessary there if they were stockpiling what Iraq is in underground tunnels n'shit...
- unknown0
Izaway..
check this out..
http://www.newstoday.com/docs/sh…