The Wilderness Downtown
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- fyoucher10
Give it a few more years. It'll be stuff like this that people will be giving the same complaints that they do for Flash.
1. "It's crashing my browser"
2. "My browser doesn't support it".
3. "Oh cool look. New Technology"
4. "Click-to-iAd is a must-have!"
5. "Vulnerability patch updated!"
and finally...
6. "I thought we were past intro's?"(Don't get me wrong, I'm all for this stuff. I think it's awesome. We all know where it'll end up going though - Same stuff Flash has been through.)
- ukit0
Even the Flash people (Flashers? Flashies?) have got to admit though, it's getting close to the point where HTML5 sites can measure up even for this kind of rich multimedia.
While I didn't think this site is technically as good as Flash or even executed perfectly, it's reasonable to think the average viewer doesn't even consider the fact that's its not in Flash. And a year from now...?
- LOL.. measure in what? popups? there is nothing interactive here except flying birds and even that absolutely kills the browsers and CPU usage.Boz
- kills the CPU. Yeah.. no thanks. I'd rather stick with Flash and I know it will work on all browsersBoz
- I think HTML 5 is better suited for the more simple stuff. It can't even come close to doing one of the sites that are featured on the F W A.fyoucher1
- ... F W A.fyoucher1
- Right now it can't. Use your imagination though, a year ago no one would have imagined thisukit
- Oh, no doubt. However, it'll still be plagued with performance issues from folks taking it too far.fyoucher1
- Boz0
First of all it's pointless.. popping up multiple browser windows to load content is ridiculous in this day of age.. Sorry..
Second, as I pointed out in the other thread and how people drool about something that they had no clue about was capable in Flash did like years ago.
"Flash was able to do stuff like this when they first introduced Local Connection and was able to communicate with multiple flash instances across active windows and swf objects inside one page.
It's interesting how people get fascinated by HTML5 and things that have been possible for years and actually much much simpler to execute"I think with HTML5 we will be seeing flying cursors and all the crap from 1990s very soon and having all these develops think it's so awesome because it's done in HTML5/JS and it took them 3 weeks to do it :)
- It's art. Not 'technically amazing'. Obviously this has no practical purposes.Bargels
- ukit0
I'm talking more about the fact that it offers a well-thought-out rich media experience, without ever using Flash. You can nitpick the individual points, I agree the popups are kind of dumb.
The key thing for me is that it doesn't seem like a gimmick anymore. And you are right, Flash is still more powerful, but have you looked at any of the WebGL stuff that is gonna launch soon? HTML5 is catching up and I don't have much doubt it will eventually surpass what Flash is capable of...
- blogger0
Let's hit the books
- Cptn_Uncanny0
It's lovely but I find this a bit ironic. A site I recently submitted to Google AdWords didn't meet their guidelines because of a pop-up. One pop-up + it's an experimental site. Made me laugh because they're using pop-ups here when Flash has been using it for years and it became a major complaint against the platform. Even experimental Flash sites received criticism because of them.
- hellojeehae0
amazing. i love this
- Boz0
@– fyoucher1
"I think HTML 5 is better suited for the more simple stuff."
Totally agreed..
I am actually great supporter of HTML5. I love the fact that HTML is finally revised, it will allow us to do some things in basic information websites and design them with less headache and "hacking". CSS3 and JS are extending everything even more and making web design work even easier. I like the fact that we will have open source video codec so we will have all browser support it for regular and non-interactive, non drm videos.
But all this is really good for news/info/blog sites. I would never recommend building a site for e-commerce or blog or similar in Flash.. Each have their own purposes.
HTML5 even with WebGL will never come close to Flash. It's years and years behind, doesn't have proper tools, it's a pain to code for and so forth..
I would rather see Flash adopt to WebGL over time (which I"m absolutely sure it will happen) and offer us everything we do but with tools to code in AS3 for Canvas for example with the Flash capabilities.
And let's not forget, all of this canvas and webgl in general stuff is pointless if browsers themselves don't support hardware acceleration and that's a major stepping stone.
Biggest problem with HTML5 in general is that there are too many cooks in the kitchen with different motivations. We will see the same kinds of problems with browser support, things not working in one browser over another.
By the time HTML5/browsers matures with all these technologies Flash will allow us to make a virtual hand pop out of the screen and touch our butts.
- ukit0
"By the time HTML5/browsers matures with all these technologies Flash will allow us to make a virtual hand pop out of the screen and touch our butts."
I hear people say shit like this but much has Flash advanced in the past 5 years? Let's put it this way, could the typical Flash site you would make today be possible with Flash 5 years ago? Probably the answer is yes.
The biggest advance in Flash, Papervision, came from developers outside Adobe. And that's what leads me to think HTML5 will ultimately win out, even if it lacks every capability of Flash today. The efforts of individual developers across the world creating stuff because they want to will ultimately crush the efforts of a top down corporation doing it for profit.
- iCanHasQBN0
kind of telling how they pretty much assume everybody's old address is going to be in a suburb. lovely album.
- monNom0
More than capability, Adobe has made flash so needlessly complex with AS3 that they're killing off the innovation that used to be the hallmark of the platform. It used to be that a /designer/ could pick up flash and with a couple of techniques produce a rich user experience that was truly creative and innovative - and in good time. With AS3, a /designer/ needs to know how to set up a model/view/controller paradigm just to get one button to talk to another. Adobe have thrown advanced programming techniques at a market that was typically novice/hobbiest in skillset --and they've driven their users to javascript.
Case in point: Papervision is a very impressive platform, and couldn't have been built in earlier versions of flash, but you don't see a lot of content coming out on it because it simply too advanced for the vast majority of users. From a business perspective it's extremely expensive to developer for, and it will remain so because the barrier to entry is just too high.
I don't see the canvas element making any inroads into flash's territory without a simple IDE, but you can bet that jqery/mootools and anything else that makes it easy for a novice to make something cool is going to keep driving innovation on the web.
- Boz0
@monNom
I can't say that I disagree with your comments but I don't think Adobe is making it complex..
I think the issue here is that those same designers are unwilling or incapable or whatever the reason is to learn new tools and expand their knowledge.
I"m sorry, I know AS3 can look intimidating to people.. Hell I was terrified. But after you get into it you actually understand why and how much better it is than AS2 or AS1.
A regular design can go and do still beautiful pieces and interactive elements in Flash now as they did before.. nothing changed. You don't have to export in AS3. You can choose to target Flash Player 10 and AS2 and do all the actionscript you want on keyframes and goToAndStop stuff. The tools for animation, physics and IK are simply unbelievable in Flash CS5 for example. I can't even imagine how much fun game developers and designers who animate and do stuff manually are having with new tools. They even introduced 3D into the Flash IDE so you can animate and transform 3D on your timeline.
Papervision is not meant to be designer-friendly.. it is a library, an engine that extends Flash's capabilities and brings something pretty awesome to the table. But due to it's complexities you can't just go on and "plug it in".
Actually Adobe is not preventing innovation. They are announcing new full 3D, hardware accelerated stuff soon and I believe it has something to do with Papervision.
- Boz0
To be perfectly honest and I'm really not defending Adobe because I think they do suck in QA dept. and can do a lot to improve their software.. But I think they did a great job bringing to Flash what community has been asking for over the years. As soon as they see something cool or people making classes that are useful they go and integrate that into Flash IDE. For those who are more of developers they have Flash Builder which is pretty terrific.
- ukit0
So why do we still not have a real 3D engine in Flash 4-5 years after Papervision launched? Some crack team over there.
I'm not knocking Flash, like many others I spent a lot of time tweening animations in my younger days, and I learned AS3 and all that no problem...
But if you were going to start from scratch would you want an animation platform controlled by a single company, or that could be developed in an open source fashion by individual developers? Given that HTML5 is as close as it is, I say we support it where we can (I still use Flash for a lot of stuff) keeping in mind that it's ultimately a better kind of approach.
- Boz0
because ukit.. Papervision wasn't as great when it started and was beta.. you can't integrate that in the retail product as easily..
Second Flash had performance issues and there was no hardware acceleration so we needed Flash 10 and Flash 10.1 to really be able to take full advantage of 3D.. There was no point doing Papervision because quite honestly it ran like shit was very limited and what you could do in terms of performance.
Hardware acceleration is a big hurdle that browser need to overcome as well.. but Flash will have fully blown 3D engine soon enough.. I believe they will announce it in Sept.
- kpl0
C'mon, 3D in Flash was and still is a glorified hack. Adobe spent its time chasing rainbows (the mobile market), and instead of extending Flash so that could be a solid desktop platform, it's now a half-assed platform for both desktop and mobile.
It's very telling that Carlos Ulloa, the guy who started PV3D, is spending most of his time in Unity 3D instead.
- ukit0
- Boz0
@kpl
Oh I love Unity3D.. no question about it.. but Unity 3D can't really compare to Flash simply because it's very very narrow. .it's dedicated game development engine and everything about it is tailored for that specifically..
I don't think Flash will ever achieve the level of quality and speed Unity has..
I actually support one of the games being developed in Unity 3D (interstellar marines).
I don't look at Flash as developing games like Unity does.. Flash is much more then game development platform. It can do simpler games and probably will make some great 3d games (with limited capabilities) when the new 3d stuff comes out but Flash platform is RIA platform. It's primary task is to create web experiences that connect to APIs, data and so forth.
I can't even imagine doing anything Flash does in Unity 3D, however I can't also imagine doing in Flash what Unity does either.
- ukit0
Boz = Adobe President
