Web design: the new print
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- vaxorcist0
ok.. these static design print/web-heads are WHY CLIENTS SEE LITTLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LUNCHMONEY WORDPRESS TEMPLATES VS AGENCY DESIGN WORK!!!
someday, people will realize how jquery, HTML5, AJAX,etc will cause people to see beyond the screenshot mindset....
Projects that get approved and specified based on screenshots tend to hit roadblocks and hellishness when the interactivity / jquery/ajax/etc gets coded and tested and somebody freaks out because its "not quite the same as the screenshot"
that's like saying a movie isn't the same as a still photo... do movies get pitched and promised based on a still photo?!?
- +1animatedgif
- movies get approved based on scrips (text). later on, there will be story board. but that's for the director. etc.akrok
- movies get pitched with a treatment or sometimes a script...fadein11
- script is more valuable than a .psd of "durrrr this is what it looks like"animatedgif
- CanHasQBN0
The idea is, if you're a designer AND a coder, then your designs may become restricted based on how much effort you're willing to put into the coding. Your mind will be less free to conceptualize and be creative with a design.
If you separate the duties, the code-ignorant designer can push the developer to try new things for the sake of a better design, which can be annoying for the developer, but the end result is usually better.
I'm not saying the designer should be totally ignorant about coding. They should have at least a basic understanding of how things work.
This would happen many times at work. I would design something, hand it off to the developer, he would complain that some aspect couldn't be done, I would say yes it can, and usually I was right. Some developers would rather avoid putting any effort into it. You have to nudge them a little bit.
- True, if you do know the code and a Developer says no it's not going to work, you can back yourself up and point out why it can.pillhead
- clearThoughts0
How about having a chat half through the design process with somebody from the dev team?
Ego battle?
- always good... not an ego battle if people are cool,... do NOT promise impossible to clients either!
vaxorcist
- always good... not an ego battle if people are cool,... do NOT promise impossible to clients either!
- CanHasQBN0
We had lots of chats all throughout the design process. He'd say no, then I'd push back with evidence from other websites proving that something could be done, and then he'd ultimately give in and execute it. It's just laziness. They'd rather leave early for the day...
- Between the two of us I HATE DEVELOPERS!!clearThoughts
- I can tell... you guys are what cause develpers all-night hell..vaxorcist
- I try not to. I really ask for some simple stuff that they just refuse to code.CanHasQBN
- I remember I wanted a button (like a Submit button) with the text as html (editable) text. He said it's better to create the buttonCanHasQBN
- button as an image. Retarded.CanHasQBN
- designquestions0
Photoshop is not a design program.
- Very good pointclearThoughts
- depends on what you're designing. it's basically all i usescarabin
- voiceof0
I'm taking this slightly away from the original post but... How do others go about getting approval without screenshots? There are a lot of designs I can think of that would be a massive waste of time to mock-up in browser only to have the client say no (even if you have a concept or wireframe already approved).
- vaxorcist0
Short answer: REALLY GOOD account staff can engage in effective Pre-sales....they get the client to TRUST YOUR VISION before you actually have to show everything....
It's about trust... otherwise it can be endless revisions and nitpicking.... and everything has to be shown in every level and approved in every layer of minute crap!!!
I once worked at a GREAT agency, I had no idea how cool they were till I left... and found a different process...
The great agency was able to burnish their image in the clients mind, pre-sell them on the concept, make them feel really good about everything and how well we understood the target market's internal buying triggers that.... lo and behold, the client was less likely to need stuff spelled out exactly to previsualize everything..
Certain other agencies I worked at later tended to have a "whatever the client wants" account staff.... strange how a good account staff can work unseen miracles in customer satisfaction and a lack of endless revisions....
- you might call it Hypnotism! whatever you call it, trust = less screenshot madness!vaxorcist
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- inteliboy0
Calling yourself a "Web Designer" and using the excuse of staying creative or whatever by not knowing HTML = lazy as fuck attitude.
Why someone would withhold themselves from knowledge directly related to their job/passion, sounds absurd to me - regardless if the workplace requires them to cut up their photoshop files or not.
If you're going to make a career out of something as geeky and competitive as web design, you should be balls out obsessed with the craft and try to understand as much as possible.... Needing to understand the construct to deconstruct etc etc rah rah.
- Miguex0
I know I might get destroyed here..
but I've been doing web work for over 10 years and I have no idea on how to code.I actively avoid anything code related, and it was the main reason why I moved away from flash and into after effects.
I have no interest in learning html, or any other source of design that is not 100% visual. But on the other end, I'm totally for learning any other ways to expand brand messaging, I have print/ web/ motion/ sound design experience and I'm happy with that instead.
To me, it's more important to see design as a complete experience that transcends the medium. The theory you learn from design should help you communicate on web/ print/ motion equally.
I've seen print only designers getting concerned of finding a job doing interactive stuff because they didn't know how to code, and after a few months of working at an interactive agency, have produced layouts far more interesting that someone that (may or may not) limit himself to what he can do based on if it can be coded or not.
Yes understand the medium, but I think the work will be far more interesting if you can team up with a good developer.
Then again, I think it's EXTREMELY rare to find a good developer that has a good sense of design (no offense to anyone here, I know that there's tons of really talented people on this forum) and if you happen to be one of those few. Make sure you are getting paid accordingly, because you my friend are a rare breed and you will always be able to find a good paying job, and most likely getting better paid than the average designer.
- _niko0
There's a lot less limitations nowadays with css, html5 and even transparent PNGs, you can do a lot more design wise and not worry about it displaying properly.
When we all started, typography took a back seat to design as we were limited by system fonts and poorly rendered ones at that. Now sky's the limit as far as type goes and it's greatly enhancing the web experience.
- Ancillary0
Most of the designers at the larger agencies I've worked at don't code, it's just the way it is these days, I don't think it makes a difference as long as the work's good. I'm surprised that people think this is strange
- works best, designers concentrate on amazing design and programmers on flawless code._niko
- _niko0
Are architects engineers as well? Or should they be able to build your house as well to be considered a good architect?
Maybe the good ones are, just asking.
- well, they do draw plans.monNom
- so what? designers draw plans for websites too. in terms of layout possibilities and site maps.CanHasQBN
- a good architect knows his materials but may not be able to swing the hammerdoesnotexist
- bort0
I've yet to meet a designer that knows zero code but can produce really top shelf digital work. I'm not saying you have to be a wizard but with no foundation I feel you're just too distanced from the mechanics of how things actually exist online. Also, too many print designers get caught up in aesthetics and completely overlook how the fucking thing works. The interactivity aspect, the way people actually use what you create is a complete after thought for most of them. That's insane. How people interact with things online is just as important as how they look. If your product is shit usability-wise and has piss poor content strategy then your sick-ass design doesn't mean squat.
It comes down to changing how we think about designing for the web. Simply making a nice looking homepage and interior page comp, then handing it off to the dev isn't going to cut it. As mentioned above, most devs are rather awful when it comes to aesthetics and, in my experience, really don't pick up on details. They just don't see the little things. As such, designers need to be involved in the process from start to finish to ensure the site is not only built to spec, but also to QA the thing as it's rolled out to ensure no usability holes have appeared or major disconnects in the sites functionality.
As someone working in a digital only shop, I can say for certain that a designer that understands the core of front-end development (html and css) has considerably more value than one that doesn't (all other things being equal).
- In my experience, it's A LOT harder to find a developer that also has a good sense of design, that's why agencies pay them a lot moreMiguex
- them a lot more.
and will also guess that most of the the top agencies, theres a designer and a developer working togetherMiguex - in regards of the interaction comment, big agencies have UX designers tooMiguex
- I suppose I'm talking about smaller shops that can't afford a dedicated UX person.bort
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- IRNlun60
In my opinion, a designer and a front-end coder should ideally have a close working relationship. I started in design 10+ years ago but have migrated into front-end development and rarely design now. My design skills have definitely suffered as a result. My ideal senario would be to work with a solid designer who's open to at least speak about the different issues regarding patterns, platforms, browsers and devices.
It's obviously dependent on the project but a considerable amount of time and effort can be saved having a designer and front-end person working closely together. The front-end person should be the intermediary between design and back-end.
- Miguex0
"I've yet to meet a designer that knows zero code but can produce really top shelf digital work."
Maybe in Canada this is unusual? I do contract work for many agencies in SD and LA and I love the fact that I can just focus on design and not having to deal with code at all. That's just the way it works in the states these days (at least in the largest shops).
Maybe you are thinking that we as designers just open photoshop send to developer and hope for the best?
There's meetings with project managers, production artists, art directors, UX designers, Developers, etc its a team work.
On a small projects/ shops I can see the need for one person to do it all, but please do not under estimate the skill of a good designer just because he doesn't code, I think it's an understatement that you need to know and understand what you are designing for, this is one of the differences between design and art, you have a message to communicate and in order to do it right, you need to understand it, and the medium.
- bort0
Don't get me wrong Miguex. I should have worded my initial post differently. I have no doubt there are capable designers out there that don't know code but still produce good digital work. I'm speaking from my personal experience which has largely been in smaller shops (at least in a digital capacity). Big agencies or companies that have the budgets to hire one person for IA, UX, visual design, front-end dev and backend dev are likely the places where these code/tech averse designers might fit most naturally.