Ban the Burqa?
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- cannonball19780
Didn't they just ban minarets? That's like banning church bells.
- in italy they still won't allow them when there are 3 churches bell located less than a km from my house and like 15 church in total in this towngeorgesIII
- 15 churches in total in this towngeorgesIII
- airey0
christians in china used to be killed. due to their vilification they were ofter granted entry into countries like the usa. wordwide people frowned down their noses at the situation where a person wearing a cross around their neck getting 20 years in prison. at the very least being told you couldn't wear a cross was considered heinous civil rights abuse. although it was china so nobody was surprised.
america was founded by people escaping persecution for their beliefs. and they wore fucking stupid hats and the women had to wear bonnets and dresses. gingham probably. they didn't give much of a fuck about the locals culture, although they did add smallpox infused blankets into the mix so maybe that's still held on to?
the niqab, or burqa or hijab aren't attacking other countries cultures. these people aren't secluding themselves away in compounds, not learning the local language and plotting our downfall. they are simply living here with different views and socio-religious expressions.
it's worth discussing and if the majority feels that seeing someones face is paramount then so be it.
but are our so-called 'cultural' beliefs actually that important to us? all of them? really? what designates a places culture evolves. it takes bits in and takes bits out. shit, around 12% of australians actually go to church yet we call ourselves a christian nation but only because that's the version of a 'creator' we were taught and kinda believe in but not really. yet our not-really-believed belief is enough to get the shits with someone else who ears something they do believe in.
the main issue i feel with this is that so much of it is based on opinion and not fact.
it's oppressing women - really? do they feel that way? if they do then shit, let's stop it but shouldn't it come from their mouths? i think arranged marriage is nuts and oppressive yet that's still common practice in some cultures. it's not for me to say as it's got nothing to do with me. it's a tad arrogant to measure the world by your own standards with everything. especially a persons religion. unless it's scientology in which case fuck 'em.
referencing taliban insanity when talking about the muslim religion is completely nuts. and ignorant. find the most hardline right-wing baptist kkk 'christian' and make him more myopic and small minded and you come slightly close to what the taliban are in relation to the muslim faith. they are fucking insane to the point that even moderate muslims are now calling for them to be killed thanks to the bombing the other week.
all in all though i like that we discuss shit here.
- Hombre_Lobo0
RAF I applaud your opinion in this situation. Very well put.
- Hombre_Lobo0
HERE WE GO!!!!
It's very simple.
You should respect the laws of the land in which you are in, religion or no religion.
I get particularly pissed of when some extreme Islamics demand Islamic only communities and ask for changes in society becuase they say that "British culture prevents them from practicing their religion".
Quite frankly, go home then.
I wouldn't dream of going to another country and then complain about their laws and culture. And if I did? I would get locked up and laughed at.
British politicians are far too soft, in relation to my reference above.
I have Islamic friends who share this opinion mainly because the koran teaches people to respect the laws of the land they are in.
I'm not saying people should never speak out against laws being passed. Im saying non-native immigrants should adhere to the laws regardless of their religion or go home.
Obviously religious history shapes the law, but it shapes it within it's own culture specific to it's own people. Travellers and immigrants have no place influencing this.
- In your racist view you forget that many Muslims were BORN in your country thus they are the natives!!!!pr2
- racist view? wow you know me so well.
They may be natives, but why should their mother-land culture affect the culture of the land they move to?Hombre_Lobo - culture be of more importance than the culture of the land they moved to?Hombre_Lobo
- are you going to be the one policing what belongs under motherland culture and what not?pr2
- right so your saying that if a mass migration of millions of people entered say the USA, making americans the minority, its ok for all the laws to be changed to suit the migrated majority and to better reflect their culture and not the culture of people who have lived far longer?
i dont agree with that.Hombre_Lobo - its ok for all the laws to be changed to suit the migrated majority and to better reflect their culture and not the culture of people who have lived far longer?
i dont agree with that.Hombre_Lobo - of people who have lived far longer?
i dont agree with that.Hombre_Lobo
- ali0
True Amicus.
In all different societies in all different ways lines are drawn for the good of the people. In the end you can't please everyone, usually the majority. Those societies choose it to be right or wrong and the line is drawn.In the end it is just cloth but it is the meaning and purpose behind the cloth that should be behind the decision.
What is the meaning of a burqa without a sandstorm?
It is the power it takes from the majority of women who are forced to wear the garments that strip them of identity, expression, body language and forces them into seclusion and limiting their interaction and communication with others. Leading a double-life... would these women really want to be cut off from the world?
- Amicus0
Universal Liberty is by definition impossible.
If I'm free to cover my face I'm impinging on other's freedom to view my face.
Of course, this is bringing logic to an almost farcical level, but in a free society shouldn't we have the right to see someone's face for many reasons – communication via body language, security and law enforcement probably being the major ones. Whether consciously or subconsciously, we all read a person's body language to help us determine their mood, whether they are telling us the truth, or for subtle clues as to whether they like us or not.
- airey0
and i'll also reiterate that the burqa is the body covering.
the niqab is the actual face vail that seems to piss everybody off.
i realise it's only the actual name of the thing so why be a stickler when telling people what they should and shouldn't do.
- Invalid0
i've not read all the posts, so not sure if this has been stated here already, but it's important to note that the burqa is not dictated by islam at all. it's purely a cultural thing and is by choice. if that choice is enforced upon them by their husbands, then they need a marriage councilor not a ban.The Quran states that men and women should dress modestly and not flaunt themselves about.
There are more specific dress codes for when a person is in the state of prayer, but neither the burqa, niqab, nor hijab are explicitly detailed anywhere as strict day to day attire.
i think we're all aware of the underlying issues that spark this sort of ban. in essence it's completely stupid. if someone wants to cover their face, legs, arms, head, hands, whatever it may be, they can go right ahead and do it. civil liberties.
- pr20
if you want to be considered a 3rd world country like Taliban's Afghanistan - then go ahead impose the ban. But then stop bullshiting about "liberty, equality, fraternity."
- airey0
my wife makes me wear pants around the house. now that's fucking oppression.
- lolits_only_me
- What about her rights? She'd make you wear 2 pairs if she could.ETM
- neue75_bold0
the closest I've experienced was wearing a salwar kameez when I was married...
- its_only_me0
- security shouldn't be the reason for any ban. hoodies would be banned otherwise.BusterBoy
- They tried to ban them somewhere in England a few years ago, citing anti-social behaviour on the part of the wearers.Continuity
- ... wearers.Continuity
- Amicus0
take two...
- Amicus0
I wouldn't ban this...
- neue75_bold0
If the movement to ban the burqa in any given country was being led by women whom felt they were being oppressed by having to wear it, I reckon I'd be the first one to hop on board of that train...
- ok, maybe not first, I'm slow on the uptake..neue75_bold
- you'd hop on board any train filled by women... as would I. :)Amicus
- The problem is they are bashed or stoned if they speak upali
- valid point, but there are afghan women in other countries whom lobby against female genital mutilationneue75_bold
- and such, so it's not unprecedented..neue75_bold
- They have tried...in countries like Iranukit
- erikjonsson0
i fucking hate how people oppress woman.
thats all
- raf0
I am an immigrant and I think the country I came to should be able to dictate the rules.
My approach is: I am a guest, the host has the right to set whatever house rules they want.
Well, for my convenience, I will try to disobey any rules I don't like (so will anyone else and we'll rant about "injustice" and "racism"), but this doesn't take away their right to set them.France's problem is that they did not set those rules when they let the influx of immigrants in. This is many countries problem. Naive political correctness of current times doesn't help.
When I hear ie. discussions whether or not an English exam in order to get an British citizenship is too harsh a requirement I facepalm instantly. How can you not require naturalized British to fucking speak English?
In Ireland, it is worse: they only require 5 years of residence, signature of 2 Irish (ie. a neighbour and a coworker) and a fee. No English language knowledge needed.
If I were Irish government, I would require people like me to learn fluent English and Irish (Gaelic) to be naturalized, even if native Irish rarely speak the latter Why? To make it fucking difficult to obtain, to make people earn and value it while teaching them about the culture.