NFL 2007
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- ronaldo0
Charles Barkley on MNF??
good lawd... that lasted about 6 minutes, had to put it on mute
hopefully it's a one time thing
- tommyo0
You two free for dinner next week?
;)
haha Cheers man!
- kingjulien0
I think we're more in agreement than we initially thought. Either way I appreciate the interesting debate.
Cheers, Tommy.
p.s. My girlfriend's tits generally pop out by the second glass of wine...)
- tommyo0
Sorry, I'm really busy right now so I can't really respond to the whole post. I see your points and I don't condone Merrimans use of an illegal substance either. Merriman paid his penalty and people still bring that incident up and I wish nothing more than that to happen to Belichick.
As far as intellectually gaining foresight into your opposition I'm all for it! If you tip your hand then the opponent should have every right to capitalize on that. Personally, and I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me, I just think that sneaking a guy behind the opponents bench to tape, is crossing the lines.
I knew what you meant by the pursuit of 'intellectually' gaining information about your opponents next move...I just think this was too far. If you came over to my house for dinner and I really wanted to see your wifes tits then I have a couple options - I can wait and hope one pops out when I ask her to pass the salt or I can hide a camera in the bathroom. Both might get me closer to my goal but one is definitely bordering on 'shady-as-all-fuck.'
The worst thing to be labeled in professional sports is a cheat and the league already drew the line in between the counties of Cheatsville and Competitive County. Belichick had a vacation home in Cheatsville, so he has to pay the taxes.
Oh and KJ, I like you and value your opinion as well. You're one of the good ones. :)
- kingjulien0
"So since Jimmy Johnson and Barry Switzer did it then it's fine? Therefore everyone cheats?"
A. The Johnson/Switzer reference was used to demonstrate that coaches, all coaches, do this to some degree. They have a little more wisdom in this area than you or I, given their credentials. Therefore, I tend to believe two hall-of-fame coaches with direct knowledge of these things than a fan, regardless of how passionate or intelligent you are.
B. What Bill Belichick did was ignore a league mandate, one that the commissioner had just warned every organization about in the preseason. He is guilty of that, and was justly punished.
What I disagree with you about, which is fine, is that videotaping a coaches' signals is somehow cheating.
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I agree to a certain extent...however please explain how placing a guy behind the opposing teams bench and video taping their signals is 'intellectual.' That's about as 'intellectual' as using steroids so you can hit the long ball.
tommyo
(Sep 17 07, 15:24)The intellectual part was not the videotaping, per se, but the devising of strategy after the fact, whether it be at half time or the next time the two squads play. Trying to figure out what a team is going to run, and coming up with a scheme that will stop the opponent.
When a quarterback calls out an audible, the defense, if they have watched enough game tape, will have a scheme to match the sudden switch in formation. A quarterback calls out Blue-45, a linebacker recognizes that play, and attempts to counter it. Players move around and what happens, happens.
All of these are hunches and educated guesses. If the Jets were aware that the Patriots did this (and Eric Mangini complained about the Patriots to the league last year - ironic that he used to be Belichick's defensive coordinator, and thus participated in the same thing he's now whining about), they would have used all this to their advantage by switching their signals and tricking the Patriots.
That's what I meant by "intellectual" - using the mind to out-think your opponent.
You comparing that to taking steroids is apples to oranges, in my opinion. And I'm not trying to attack you, Tommy, as I like you, but you have to realize that by making this argument, you're essentially suggesting that there should be an asterisk next to the Chargers 14-2 record last year, since their best defensive player used steroids(and was suspended), and one of their offensive lineman (Castillo?) also got busted just prior to his rookie year.
I personally don't believe this - the Chargers were good because they were an excellent team - but you can't express moral outrage at one and not the other.
- blaw0
don't take this as a direct poke, tommyo, because it's not.
i get where you are coming from, but football's a tough guy sport and all this crying 'he cheated!' reeks of talcum-scented panties.
i think everyone should dry their eyes, change their signals and play football.
- tommyo0
So since Jimmy Johnson and Barry Switzer did it then it's fine? Therefore everyone cheats? Watching the coordinator from across the field is one thing, video taping him from behind is another thing completely.
Putting this into context with one of the examples you gave: A runner on second base stealing the the catchers signs would be like watching the opposing coordinator from across the field, your side of the field. Video taping from behind the opposing teams bench is like bugging the dugout. In baseball of course this wouldn't make much sense since it's not a sport of team planning as much as a sport of individual circumstance.
Throwing away game plans in the trash, revealing your signals from across the field all involve sloppiness of the team and maybe their secrets aren't being guarded enough. The Jets didn't do anything stupid that got their play calling stolen. When the league proposed allowing one defense captain be mic'ed up so that the coordinator could call plays via headset...guess who was one of ten teams to vote against it. Billy Belicheat and the Pats.
'Trying to figure out the opposing team's offensive/defensive schemes is part of the intellectual side of sports, and has been going on since the dawn of the game.'
I agree to a certain extent...however please explain how placing a guy behind the opposing teams bench and video taping their signals is 'intellectual.' That's about as 'intellectual' as using steroids so you can hit the long ball.
- blaw0
completely agree with kingj x2.
- kingjulien0
king.
isn't that the same thing as saying all of barry bond's home runs he hit are somehow tainted?
same thing bud.
k0na_an0k
(Sep 17 07, 14:01)I don't think all of Barry's home runs are tainted. Prior to his use of anything, he was the best player in the game.
He did go on a ridiculous run later in his career, during a stretch when most players deteriorate, and his body went through profound changes, so that should at least be part of the discussion.
- kingjulien0
Every coach/team does not cheat. That's a moronic argument. Even if they did, they shouldn't, and that's something we should all be able to agree upon.
tommyo
(Sep 17 07, 12:26)Did you watch Fox's pregame report yesterday? Both Jimmy Johnson and Barry Switzer, Hall-of-Fame coaches who have won championships on both the collegiate and professional levels, stated emphatically that trying to decipher the other team's play calling has been going on forever. Both admitted to doing it. Both denied it was cheating, just getting a competitive edge.
Jimmy Johnson went on to state that while coaching Dallas, he had interns comb through the opposing locker rooms' garbage cans - after each game - for game plans, photographs, and anything else that would provide insight into the other team's strategies.
Scouts attend games, take photographs of plays from the stands or the booths, and watch the sidelines for patterns that reveal play-calling.
In baseball, runners on second base try to read the catcher's signs. That's why they change the signs mid-game.
Taking performance-enhancing drugs, altering your equipment to gain a competitive edge, using corked bats or vaseline or spit to doctor a baseball, that is cheating.
Trying to figure out the opposing team's offensive/defensive schemes is part of the intellectual side of sports, and has been going on since the dawn of the game.
- k0na_an0k0
they are probably selling the secrets to terrorist networks all over the world.
fuckn patriots my ASS!
- morilla0
there might be more to come on their punishment. Looks like the league is asking for all their camera footage.
- k0na_an0k0
how about we put in the history books an asterisk next to the pats' wins for each of their superbowls.
- morilla0
Pats are tainted now ,no way around it.
- k0na_an0k0
king.
isn't that the same thing as saying all of barry bond's home runs he hit are somehow tainted?
same thing bud.
- kingjulien0
Coaches have been stealing signs for years. It's part of the game. This Patriots story is silly:
sportsillustrated.cn n....
kingjulien
(Sep 14 07, 10:05)It's called being punished cause you got stupid and got caught...
TheBlueOne
(Sep 17 07, 12:22I have no problem with the NFL punishing the Patriots. What I think is absurd are those who say that the 3 championships the Pats won are somehow tainted. It's petty jealousy, and yesterday's spanking of the Chargers (also a good squad, albeit one that is adjusting to a new coach) confirms the obvious: New England is an excellent team.
- blaw0
btw, i really like the pats, but belichick is turning out to be some kind of asshole. can't even stand up at a press conference and close the box on this stuff? leaves it up to his players to get peppered with questions about his coaching tactics?
- blaw0
everyone's new-girl-in-school pick this year is san francisco, myself included. but we'll see how they fair against pittsburgh next week.
i'm guess the 49ers get loss number one. those were two sloppy wins they've put together so far.
- fortified0
How could the seahawks do this to me? Lose to the gawd damn cardinals? ugh I give up.
- flavorful0
I am donking this year off so bad gambling it is almost unbelievable.